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Related to "mind-expanded people".
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Gopendragon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 22, 2004 06:45
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...from crude mind becomes more subtle. |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 22, 2004 10:52
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On 2004-12-21 16:43, deejayridoo wrote:
very nicely said, sherlockalien 
(imo) mind expansion
-is closely connected to wisdom and
-(mental, not economic!) liberalism
-effects deep and lasting (!) insight into the principles of causality (karma)
-makes you deeply understand that your construct of reality and truth is only one among billions and therefore you inescapably need the others to create this "reality"
-enables you to let go
-rises your awareness of (and living accordingly) the fact that everything that happens is a result of former series of acts and thoughts (and therefore must be as it is)
-strengthens your meditative skills
-rises tolerance
-reveals your compassion towards all beings
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So, MDMA is a mind expanding drug nowadays? Where has this world come to?
Wisdom has more to do with what you read than with what you eat - you will find more wisdom in Nietzche than you will on a blotter of acid. You will find more liberalism in Descartes than in a massive dose of mushrooms. Causality has nothing to do with Karma except in a very abstract sense, relating these together is very un-scientific illogical, the expanded mind would probably try and stay away from incomplete connections in favor of complete ones, no?
The construct of reality is something that when you learn enough - you just ignore. Just like the fact that one day you are going to die. There's nothing you can do about it but live on or die, so you just live on. I don't consider this wisdom, I consider it a flaming waste of time. Enabling you to let go - well, the expanded mind is forced to let go. I don't approve of this form of indoctrination at all, I think that this advance is frying your brain instead of teaching it.
Your meditative skills may be improved, but on the same note - you can sometimes feel much more 'detached' for a long period after a psychedelic expereince (this is especially true for acid), and in this detachment, it is very easy to meditate, but also much harder to connect to the world - there is a definate trade-off here, and I'm not sure it's a positive one. As to tolerance, that is a personal trait, and in no way are most psychonauts I know more tolerant than other 'normal' people in average, or more compassionate for that matter.
A few things that psychedelics DO give in a 100% irrefutable way:
1) An appreciation and sometimes a deep understanding of aesthetics.
2) Another point of view, from which certain preconceptions look kinda stupid. This makes people less naive, something I'm not sure if positive or not.
3) The understanding that there is a relationship between the subconcious self and the ego (using the 'eastern' definition of ego, not the psychological one), and the balance between them defines who you really are... and if you go deep enough, then the understanding that psychedelics don't do much to change this balance in any way, in the end you are the one who builds this balance.
4) Increased potency of mental disorders: personality disorders will be accentuated, manic or depressive behavior can also be accented, and so on. Without psychological guidance, psychedelics can do even more damage than good. Don't say this is bullshit. I've seen this happen in many people, even when they didn't see it happening to themselves.
 http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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deejayridoo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 22, 2004 13:33
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well, i do not agree with your critics at all, even if i do agree on several assertions of yours.
you seem to criticize my thoughts on a anti-substance basis.
i did not talk about drugs specifically (and definitely not about mdma), if you read carefully, my friend.
i was speaking about mind expansion in general (of course also about your mentioned reading of books), not only about the drug induced type.
i´m very skeptical about the drug thing either.
and, my friend, i recommend you to read the tibetan book of the living and dying.
karma IS ethical causality, not in the very close western scientific definition, maybe, but in a "multicausal" way (there are allways plenty of causes for an effect to take place).
death is not something that just happens someday, but it is, in buddhism, a central aspect of life and we should deals with it the whole life, not push it away as all western societies do.
and - what waste of time are you talking about - to me, your assertions sound very indoctrinated by the western ideologies, no offense, this applies more or less to anyone in the west (also myself, of course). |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 22, 2004 14:48
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This is building up into quite an interesting debate. Anyways, of course I started off with the drug connotation of 'mind expansion', as 'mind expansion' doesn't refer to religions, philosophies, or studies of any kind (all three forms aren't arrogant enough to use such a pompous phrase). I don't see anyone on the way to a yoga practice saying "I'm gonna expand my mind now". I have seen many people say that before chowing down on blotters.
Karma is not ethical causality IMO, that is a literal definition and something that couldn't explain why Bill Gates owns as much as 10 countries (and no, the fact that the people there are starving to death doesn't make this ok, it makes it even more wrong), why the Holocaust happened and other such things (people once explained the deaths of babies in the holocaust as "paying for sins of the past lives". Excuse me if this view of ethical causality makes me feel ill) - bad people are out there and some of them are very, very successful. People like Donald Trump get their second and third chances after causing damages to hundreds of thousands of people, while thousands of Trump's ex-employees have had their lives ruined due to megalomania in Trump's management. Trump is considered a hero in the US now, only 20 years later. Ethical causality doesn't exist, or at the very least is very imprefect. I think it's a metaphor, about the way people react to positivity and negativity, and how those emenate from one place to another (same as Chakras - no doctor can find them, just like no doctor will find an organ called a soul, but it is a VERY powerful metaphor, and you can apply it in such a way to the outside world), it is a way to make you believe that being a better person is good for you, not only for others - a good person is treated better than a bad one by most. If you say that karma is completely just (or "multicausal" as you explained it), then you say that a person has no control whatsoever upon his life, that choice is an illusion, and therefor life doesn't matter except to others, you yourself mean nothing.
I wouldn't call my view 100% western though - I am a firm believer in logic, that is true, but this doesn't mean that I am not aware of the eastern point of view, or that I have not incorporated bits of eastern philosophy and way of life in my own view (and hey, I love Japanese food  ). I have read the book you mentioned (a translation of it, naturally), and found it rather incomplete - but quite enjoyable.
The paths to enlightenment are different in many systems:
* Jewish-hassidic enlightenment is through joy and emotion
* Jewish-kabbalistic view is very rational, logical and deep and contains VERY many parallels to Buddhism (including a Jewish system that's surprisingly similar to Charkras)
* The Christian-Lutheranian view offers a different spin on things - Enlightenment is a goal that humans must prepare for: "If the end of days will happen soon, I'd want to make sure that I've done all I can to make sure it goes for the best" is one of Luther's quotes, roughly translated.
* Descartes was the first guy who brought the "put doubt in conceptions until you are certain" ideology, the first modern 'realist' and the fuel behind the renessiance, gives a path in which religion and science go hand in hand
* Nietzsche's view of enlightenment is a man that is beyond morality alltogether, his view and decisions come from inside, not through indoctrination at all.
* The ancient Mongolian system: "There is nothing better than slaying your enemy, burning down his house and raping his women" (this ideology made less than a million people control nearly all of Asia and parts of Europe - before they became a part of the cultures they conquered).
I am saying... the diversity of paths to enlightenment is amazing only within the western culture - and there are also the shamanic views (which differ from place to place - most people aren't aware that the beduin people have shamans and their own form of ayahuasca as part of their culture, not only Islam), eastern views and so on... And guess what - each system works for some people.
You can't say that an expanded mind is a certain thing, because each person achieves his balance with the world and himself in different means, finds his own personal 'system', which includes stability of mind, body, emotion and the world. If anything, an expanded mind is one that allows this balance to be positive... in the words of Oscar Wilde, "The complex man seeks the simple pleasures"... The expanded mind once it is expanded enough sees that there really is nothing to it all. It really is all that simple. That is the final understanding of the expanded mind. The belief and understanding that all is as it should be on a personal level. Let's say you understand how the entire world works... would this in any way change what is a good life for you? Would it really change how you relate to other people? Is it anything more than an abstract quest?
Calling the understanding of the construct of the universe a waste of time if anything is Eastern, not Western philosophy. The applicable philosophical Western teaching in this case would be the philosophy of physics, in which this question is the very core of all action, Eastern philosophy just says "learn to accept the world" (for instance: Buddhism's view of 'Life is suffering'. You are taught to accept that, not to explain it - if you explain it, you've done nothing, if you accept it, than all that happens is for the best)... not "learn the world".
Next on Kaz's philosophy: Man proves that air and ground paths are mathematically the same, gets hit by a 747.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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singularity
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 22, 2004 15:00
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umm.. lots of individual thoughts.
expanded mind to me means.
+ a knowledgable person ( in most fields probably: philosohpy, art,music, literature & physics)
without understanding art,music,literature,& Physics.. no person can increase is tolerance,acceptance,dimensions & appreciation for life around him.
+ ethics,character & a person with a clear idea about Good & Bad
+ Someone who can see through all the wordly drama ( emotions,sufferings,joy of the people) which requires
+ understanding people/cultures.
+ Someone who thinks/acts more on INTUITION than being Rational.
+ someone who believes not in any particular religion but in Humanity & the Superior Energy.
+ high tolerance & awareness
+ high intellect & admiration for nature & beings.
+ one who can control his feelings,emotions,mind,actions..
+self knowledge about himself.
& finally on the personal note. i think people with expanded minds" are silent, wise people who understand more than other ordinary people in life. they can anticipate other people through experience, intuition,.. they can also make their own path without worrying about emotional or moral support.
i dont believe in the use of psychedelics regularly to open your mind. that is just hallucinating your mind temporarily.doesnt bring u wisdom,tolerance,knowledge,& understanding.. only joyful moments!!
~Peace~
'Whoever Knows Everything but not Within, Lacks everything"
nice topic:
some books i recommend reading.
" The Freedom of Choice - Thomas.J.Chalko"
" The Silva Mind control methods & techniques - Jose Silva"
& lots of books on Art,Music,Culture,
]| warrior of the light|[ |
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ajna
Started Topics :
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Posted : Dec 23, 2004 12:27
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mind expanded means nothing.
we are just 6 billions peoples with 6 billions different level of consciousness.
we were not born with the same level of consciousness.
we "expand" consciouness through love, sharing, meditation, pain, joy, travell, dialogue, substances sessions,music listening and dancing, enjoying different forms of arts, observing nature, animals ,plants etc...
your mind does not need to expand in that it has no limit. You just have to get all the more free from your "normal" perceptions which are just a gate and sometime a wall preserving you from "seeing" the unseen, the real nature of "reality". the point is that getting that with a 10 years-meditative work guided by a tibetan lama is not exactly the same than having a trip in a party !!!
both of them are related but the final effect on the life and mind of a person are not always so closed !!!
have a lot of different types of xperiences, do not let another one be the judge, and try to be honnest in yourself when you are judging an experience, do not fool yourself.
keep faith in cosmos and the universe will help you to get to higher state of consciousness. this is the common point or all paths of all forms of lifes here, the difference is just how many "time" and lifes will it take.all of us are her to transform basic level of consciousness to more sbtil ones.
all of us are here to let the mind be gradually the master of matter. the difference between one human and another are just the steps of our paths and the numbers of steps !!!
love to all of you
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ajna
Started Topics :
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71
Posted : Dec 23, 2004 12:30
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mdma expand consciousness far less than it damages your brain cells !!
I know it as an ex abuser of this substance !!! |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 23, 2004 13:27
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MDMA is far from mind expanding in general - 1-2 times of use should be enough to understand that (was for me anyways, that was a long while ago now). The risks I'm talking about are for acid specifically - the effects of acid don't end whithin 10 hours of eating the blotter. They don't end within a week. Usually, if you look for subtle details, you'll see that about a month (!) after taking acid, your thought process is somewhat erratic. The major damages acid does are not while you trip - it's the destabalization that it causes. The psychological damages during a trip are probable only if you have latent schizophrenia or something like that - it's just one event... but breaking down your very definition of self and then rebuilding it like it was made out of lego is not something that people should think is without risks.
TGC: an average dose of acid is 70-100mcg. Only one form of blotter was found to have more than 150mcg in the last 30 years. 350 already reaches a level where your thought process is completely warped (near-ego-death, lower psychedelic level, the second 'learning' level), 500 is already a level where you have a hard time differentiating visual hallucinations from visual reality (psychedelic dose), 1000 is already something that the border between reality, self, madness, hallucinations and your senses has already stopped existing, and you see nothing wrong with this. 350mcg is a dose most people never try (as for 99% of the people this is an EXTREMELY visual dose already).
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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algiz
Started Topics :
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31
Posted : Jan 2, 2005 22:49
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i think life is simple...we get this adjectives to define our way of being, of thinkin', livin'..and we start to complicate...and loosing time..when we could be dancin', lovin',etc....all mankind have impulses and instincts, and that make us equals, then people have different choices, in terms of faith, beleifs...i think we want to beleive in somethin' very complex, like:what happened?what are we doing right here?what am i?..is this real?, is this virtual?..when we get out of our ego we live the most psychedelic moments, and we are in other place, we know that...is that real?everithyng could be real if we let our mind go with our wishes, our imagination, mind-expanded people are those who realise that the earth is alive, and she made us...are those who feel different looking at the ants of society..
everything will get more simple if we work for good and reach our objective of live... |
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EYB
Noized
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Posted : Jan 2, 2005 23:23
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On 2004-12-19 23:41, Alex wrote:
Hello there psymates!
I was wondering if all these people who consider himself as a mind expanded person have in common the same concept of being mind expanded or not.
So these are the questions:
- What do you personally think or how would you define a mind-expanded person?
- What do you think is the difference between being mind expanded or not?
- What factors contribute for getting a mind-expanded "mind" ?
- Is it related to the music, maybe for experiences you realise in live, maybe psychedelic drugs, maybe a mix of many things?
Let's all check if we have the same concept of mind expanding, I know maybe it is hard to explain or reply the questions but I'm curious about this topic and I would like people help me understand better this concept. So please waste a bit of your energy on your replies, thank you
(sorry if it was posted before but I could not find it)
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Simple, mind-expanded people don't ask/don't even care about this.
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H2O
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 2, 2005 23:41
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LOL, true |
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furthur
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 3, 2005 02:56
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On 2004-12-23 13:27, kaz wrote:
The risks I'm talking about are for acid specifically - the effects of acid don't end whithin 10 hours of eating the blotter. They don't end within a week. Usually, if you look for subtle details, you'll see that about a month (!) after taking acid, your thought process is somewhat erratic.
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I would say rather that the thought process wa erratic before taking LSD. Also, if the effects of acid stopped after the "trip" weas over, there would really be no point to taking it.
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The major damages acid does are not while you trip - it's the destabalization that it causes.
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That is not damaging. Acid is supposed to destabilize you at first to show you that no solid foundation to anything exists. The most unstable thing there is is thinking that you are in any way stable imo.
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but breaking down your very definition of self and then rebuilding it like it was made out of lego is not something that people should think is without risks.
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The biggest risk anyone runs is not breaking down the ego. Why shouldn't we rebuild ourselves? Who, other than myself, should have any say in what meakes me up? Unless, you break yourself down comletely to quarks and beyond, and build yourself up from scratch (and I don't mean that there will ever be an end result to this building, it is an ever-ongoing process), you are simply letting society tell you what to be. And do we really want that?
Load Universe into Cannon. Aim at Brain. Fire.
www.ganesha.ca |
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deejayridoo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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309
Posted : Jan 3, 2005 13:12
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On 2005-01-03 02:56, furthur wrote:
That is not damaging. Acid is supposed to destabilize you at first to show you that no solid foundation to anything exists. The most unstable thing there is is thinking that you are in any way stable imo.
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so true!
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On 2005-01-03 02:56, furthur wrote:
The biggest risk anyone runs is not breaking down the ego.
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exactly!
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On 2005-01-03 02:56, furthur wrote:
Why shouldn't we rebuild ourselves? Who, other than myself, should have any say in what meakes me up? Unless, you break yourself down comletely to quarks and beyond, and build yourself up from scratch (and I don't mean that there will ever be an end result to this building, it is an ever-ongoing process), you are simply letting society tell you what to be. And do we really want that?
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this is the most important conclusion of the experience of ego-nullification:
to re-construct a new self-definition which is based on deep understanding of the nature of all things and beings
(which is transitory, empty and non-substantial)
and compassion with everything.
this is what shamans do with their patients.
and this is what buddhist monks work hard for during years of meditation.
and answering your question:
we don´t want that, but a lot of people, mostly legalists (i.e. people strictly following the law in an ultra-orthodox way, no matter what...) do want it!
it´s a very different approach to life:
liberal/ intelligent/ understanding/ LETTING-GO/ TRUST
VS
close-minded/ repressive/ dogmatic/ TO CONTROL/ DISTRUST
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furthur
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Feb 7, 2005 05:28
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Just like the fact that one day you are going to die. There's nothing you can do about it but live on or die, so you just live on.
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RAW (Robert Anton Wilson) says something interesting on this topic in Prometheus Rising. He says that one of the many preconceptions we must get rid of is the one that death is inevitable. Sort of goes against everything a lot of spiritual and philosophical traditions teach. Can't say if I agree with him, but I do believe it is important to at least pay attention to such a possibility.
I mean it has a lot to do too with your definition of death. However, whatever that definition may be, how do we know for sure that death will come. Of course, if you accept it and are ready for it, death becomes much easier and enjoyable; however, maybe it comes precisely because you accept it (even though I know a lot of people that have never accepted it, but are still "dead" now).
Maybe this inevitability must be rephrased as the inevitability that you must part with your physical body or at least must be able to part with it.
Load Universe into Cannon. Aim at Brain. Fire.
www.ganesha.ca |
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