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question to organizers about fake live-acts

zafer
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  65
Posts :  290
Posted : Aug 23, 2005 01:10
fake live-act topic is not a new topic but what i want to know is the party organizers point of view.

situation: you're charged hundreds (often thousends with big names)of $ from an artist to play live at the party you organized, during the two hours he "performed live" (?) he never used earphones, now and then tweaked some knobs (usually during climax) without almost even looking at the screen of the pc (usually a macintosh looking very cool with that shiny apple....)to check what the f""k he's tweaking.....you got it????

so how do you react when you realize you paid (much) someone for a live act and what he actually did was carry his equipment and exploit it not more then a cd player....don't you get a little disappointed???don't you feel..... hmmmm....i can't find the words, so explain to me please, starting from your real experiences as organiser

bye
full_on
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  278
Posts :  5470
Posted : Aug 23, 2005 01:17
Sure, but the artists have the right to express his music the way he thinks it will sound better.

Usually artists work a lot BEFORE live acts, melting layers of sounds, pre-listening the set, chosing presets, etc...

I think real hardware can add a very good feeling to the public (like Sub6 or Psysex), but in fact it is the music that counts.

Now if you wanna hear someone playing guitar...
Respect!           .
...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
.
...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell...
zafer
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  65
Posts :  290
Posted : Aug 23, 2005 01:35
this topic i want to know the organizer side of the thing, and not discuss about live acts itself

anyway 'bout your opinion: i also agree that fake-lives sound better than real ones, but it's here that artists have to show nuts and their knowledge andcapacity!!!!!!

and sure they are free to perform best they can ....
but if best they can is dj'ing, then they better don't lie and tell things as they are!!!!

personally if i was an organizer and call someone for live and what he does is pushing play at the begin just throwing his hands in the air with rythm the rest of the time, he must be very convincing in telling me he's got telekinetik powers or i just don't pay him

full_on
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  278
Posts :  5470
Posted : Aug 23, 2005 05:18
Hehehe, funny...

I think the best way is to talk with the artist before about what equipment he will use, how long he will play, etc... After you know what is gong to happen at his Live Act, you decide if that's what you want.
I usually would choose a DJ set, but the words: "LIVE ACT" printed on a flyer cause a good impression on the public...
Respect!
          .
...Be gentle with the earth...
...Dance like nobody's watching...
.
...I don't mind not going to Heaven, as long as they've got Coffee in Hell...
filter
Moderator

Started Topics :  87
Posts :  703
Posted : Aug 23, 2005 10:58
im in my case the parties we did most of the artists played as djs, and we brought only 3 lives, the 3 of them are quite "important and well known".

two of them played live, one of them charging A LOT of money, but they actually played, you could see them doing "stuff" as the music from the laptops was played.

there was another band, which did not do a single thing, we talked before, asked what they needed, made sure everything was set up ok, they had 2 laptops and 2 synths, and the only thing they did was drink whisky and send kisses to the people.

the music they played was quite different from the cds, so clearly a lot of work was put in the tracks, but we spend quite a lot of money in renting the equipment they needed, so in the end all the live set up they asked for was not used.

this band also charged a lot of money, and they are well known from a long time, but here they just decided to dance and send kisses and drink. they were having fun, but the people who were there to see them play, felt quite pissed off about this.

i happen to be an organizer and also an artist, and to tell you the truth i dont understand why they would fake a live act. as an artist i think its boring to just stand there!! and as a promoter it think that its not fair to ask a lot of money for a live set , which is usally at least double of the dj set fee, if you wont do anything. i recognize that they put a lof of work in the studio, but if you play live and get well paid, you should give the person who hire you something in exchange.

so i dont know whats up, to tell you the truth its quite dissapointing to see this kind of things in psychedelic trance, even with bands that are very famous. there is a whole different world going on between promoters and artists, and it has nothing to do with the people dancing and having a good time in the party. wherever there is money, people act strange, and if more money is involved, people act f*cking weird.

so well i hope that artists feel the responsibility of actually playing if they are hired to do so!           Psychedelic Trance from Argentina
www.darkprisma.com.ar
www.megalopsy.com.ar
www.psytrance.com.ar

Megalopsy Travel Blog
http://megalopsy.blogspot.com
Fugga
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  23
Posts :  203
Posted : Aug 23, 2005 16:34
I get pissed off when a live act is " ONLY TWEAKING THE FILTER FOR 10 SECONDS PER TRACK"

WTF !! IS THAT.
.
mysticalfairy
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :  16
Posts :  21
Posted : Aug 23, 2005 18:54
I've seen lots of live PA's that were fabulous. Infected mushroom, the synthetic dream foundation, and KoxBox just to name a few. All I'm sure were playing live.
Surrender
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  506
Posts :  5388
Posted : Aug 23, 2005 19:37
i use to organize parties in new york city so ill try to respond as best i can:
i have booked acts that were superb in their live, and ive booked acts that made me very pissed that i had to rent out all of that equip. for NOTHING. for sure i let them know that they could make it easier on the promoter next time, its not fair - first they charge more for the live, ask me to get things that arent always easy to get (rent) and finally use them as midi controllers in the best case scenario... i am not some trance enthused kid who doesnt know the diffrence, so when this happend i was quite mad, and had a talk to the artist about it in private.
on the other hand - ill give you an example to a great live that i absolutely did not mind spending large sums of money on the equipment for:
Psysex - Live act. this was for sure a great performance, one person on a electronic standing drumset, the other on various synths and the computer... this was true and real. im not saying that without the live equip. the music wouldve sounded beatless or synthless - lets not go crazy.... it is afterall very important to have the basic elements running steady and uninteruppted - but - the elements they added to the music (since i know many of their tracks) made the simple diffrence.
you have to think of things as a trade off as a promoter:
if you advertise "dj sets", you save money on the artist but you may lose more money on the fact that your crowd is less attracted to the party. on the other hand you risk paying more to the artist with a "live" hoping that this will attract more people and you will be able to cover your investment. its a risk one should take based on their experience with their local crowd and the condition of the scene in their area.
hope i helped.


          "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon
daniel duarte
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  13
Posts :  219
Posted : Aug 24, 2005 18:31
Quote:

On 2005-08-23 01:10, zafer wrote:


so how do you react when you realize you paid (much) someone for a live act and what he actually did was carry his equipment and exploit it not more then a cd player....don't you get a little disappointed???don't you feel..... hmmmm....i can't find the words, so explain to me please, starting from your real experiences as organiser

bye




Ever ocurred to you that, before bringing his equipment and all his shit, he actually had to make the tracks? Hours and hours of work creating his music?

That puts him already 5x times higher than the regular Dj.. wich spins other peoples stuff (mainly)

A live act is just a way for you and the crowd to ear that artist music.. and his album.. All that comes after that (the performance itself and what the artist plays) its an extra.

God just think about it.. Would you prefer seeing Metallica or some other band doing covers of metallica? Get my point?

Its about seeing the creators of that track you love...
Janux
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  97
Posts :  766
Posted : Aug 24, 2005 18:46

i organized a party in nyc and had the artist ask me and my more teched out partners for a whole bunch of equipment for his live set.
i watched him play his 'live' set and he didnt seem to really use any of it...
a few months later i mentioned it in a thread, and the same artist bit back at me and told me to stop talking without knowing.... and he claimed that there was a lot going on on his lap top that i do not know about....

so my question is... fair enough... but if it was all going on in his laptop... then what was the use for all the other equipment if he could play / tweak his whole live set through his laptop.

my actual question is: is it possible to control a bunch of external hardware used for live through his lap-top? if so then maybe i was wrong and it could be possible that he was using all the equipment he asked for without touching it with his hands and only using the laptop?

another thing. when i asked him at one point, how much longer he was going to play. he looked at his laptop's timeline countdown clock which said 31 minutes 41 seconds... and he answered that he would be playing for 31m and 41 seconds...
how live can a set be that is all already layed out on a timeline and playing (other than tweaking some filters here and there) I dont know so much about live... so if someone could tell me whether myjudging of this situation is correct or not... and how 'live' was this artist's live set. thankx.           www.facebook.com/DjJanux
HandA
Inactive User

Started Topics :  9
Posts :  890
Posted : Aug 24, 2005 18:57
Quote:

On 2005-08-24 18:46, Janux wrote:
my actual question is: is it possible to control a bunch of external hardware used for live through his lap-top? if so then maybe i was wrong and it could be possible that he was using all the equipment he asked for without touching it with his hands and only using the laptop?



A simple answer. Yes it's possible. Now if he did it that way or not I can not say.

The technology is called MIDI which basically trigger external hardware via a sync signal from the computer. The actual sounds comes from the external hardware such as synthesizers through the main Live PA Mixer. The actual nodes are recorded into the computer in software programs such as Logic or Cubase etc. But in Live situations many use the program called "Ableton Live".. which also use Midi where special recorded parts can be played on top of audio tracks, loops and samples that can be activated via the mouse or an external keyboard.

Sorry if it's confusing

So it's indeed possible that he did that even though my experince tell me that most just press the mouse and let a pre-made set play.... and then they pretend to play "live"

So it's very hard to tell if he faked it or actually did play some of it live via the equipment he had you guys rent.

Normally you need to have a direction on a liveset and know the duration of time. So you need some structure and also need to be able to tell how long you play. There's nothing weird about that he knew how long the set lasted and that the files (probably the before mentioned audio tracks) were layed out on a timeline... All "fakers" and indeed those who play live use this model. The difference is that those who play "live" actually put things on top of the basic audio/drum tracks.
zafer
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  65
Posts :  290
Posted : Aug 24, 2005 21:50
seems that 100% live set's are dead since pc's made their appearence in the scene: to me a live set is the assemblying of single sequences of sounds, with the help of MIDI tech to sincronize the different sounds.

i still have this image of people completely absorbed in what they're doing, moving their hands between all the knobs in an almost phrenetic way, not to run ouut of time with the music, in a defy between the music and the live performer who has to be sensible and fast enough to create something that goes on and pushes the crowd further in the listening/dancing experience.

if the so called live is in any measure preprogrammed it isn't live anymore,, live has to be totally bent with the floor: if the floor turns right the live also does, and something preprogrammed follows his track without the flexibility needed to follow the floor.

i intentionally started this topic in a polemic and provocative way, but in anyway disrespect any artist doing this kind of half/live acts, they deserve respect for what they create and the work and sweat and passion they put into it, but........you know what a live act to me is

what pushed me start such a topic is knowing that some of my favourite artists get ~2000-3000 $ (really!!!) for a live act (that means a loan of 1000$/hour), and they don't offer any work in progress: tehy just play preready tracks playing with filters now and then, and it all seems like that what their concerned about is looking cool while they're dancing the music they're supposed to be creating at the moment.

i'm just disappointed, i would love 1000 more a real live act with some errors here and then, but knowing that the artist is sincerely trying to play the game without tricking, giving himself 100% to the floor with the risk of failing: this i would respect 100 times more: the artist naked from all the securities that preprogramming warrant, to try to fly this machine togheter.... you understand me ...? ;-)

man that would be LIVE and she/he would be GOD!!!

they still are my favourite artists but live wasn't meant to plant a seed on the floor and make it grow togheter with the crowd?
instead it seems that some live-acts are just reaping their success

bye

mono mono
Onnomon

Started Topics :  5
Posts :  314
Posted : Aug 24, 2005 22:10
hmmm....I guess i'm not professional enough since I usually bring all the gear I need, including power-plug adapters for the international power sockets.

check out http://www.thesmokinggun.com (the "backstage" section) for an entertaining run-down of contract "riders" for big-name musical acts.

-dz
mubali
Mubali

Started Topics :  71
Posts :  2219
Posted : Aug 24, 2005 22:51
Usually when it comes to writing music, you tend to do a lot of things when it comes to sculpting sounds, and sometimes music is made by happy "accidents". For me, some of the sounds that are in my tracks are created by laying out some midi in a synth, recording it to audio, and tweaking it further adding a bunch of effects that if used in conjunction with an already running great number of channels, could crash my computer. For me the live set should have a level of continuity that your tracks have, but still introduce new elements that weren't heard in the previously recorded tracks. If your favorite artists got up to do a live set, and just jammed on their gear without playing any of the music that you know from them and made mistakes on when stuff was supposed to come in or what sounds should've been eq'ed better, you would say that he should've just dj'ed their tracks rather than live improvization... So why not have the best of both worlds?

Of course there will be some people that just "press play" (I did it once when my midi controller went out on me) and for me that sucked.... I didn't feel the connection to the dancefloor that I do when I am playing a synthline that I just made right there on the spot underneath one of my tracks.

Personally, I am going be experimenting this weekend with how much I can get away with playing live. I am thinking about having the starting and ending song set and kinda improvising between playing prerecorded full songs and playing live synths and some drumloops on top of a few kick and bass combinations.

I usually bring everything that I need for my live sets as well, because I don't believe in making someone spend more money than they need to just to make me look cooler... Now if I were using that particular piece of gear at home, it were truly vital to making my live set work, and I didn't want it to go on the plane, then I would ask the promoter if he could borrow it from someone... Otherwise, I'd find another way to make the situation work.           An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
piko_bianko
Oxya

Started Topics :  57
Posts :  974
Posted : Aug 25, 2005 09:18
Quote:

On 2005-08-23 01:10, zafer wrote:
what he actually did was carry his equipment and exploit it not more then a cd player....



let me inform u that they dont even carry their equipment for these fake live acts... i've been working as sound and light engineer for 1.5 years and i've seen many shit happening... they usually sent a writer to the organizer telling them what equipment they need to play (and they ask too many stuff), and they get really angry when something could not be found or brought on the stage (they cant fake good with the wrong equipment)...

of course, i don't to mess good artists with bad artists... i don't want to make personal referals, but there are artists that sweat on the stage to perform, they live and feel it and we all have to respekt them to the bone, and of course the ones who play trakks made with software only, and fake it with nordleads and stuff to get credit from others...

the last thing i want to comment is that be sure that organizers know pretty well if the act will be live, even before they book an artist..           extreme
Trance Forum  Forum  Trance - question to organizers about fake live-acts

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