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P.L.U.R.? P.L.U.R my a** - Brazilian style.

sherlockalien
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  22
Posts :  629
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 03:40
what about publicly playing a cd that was bought for personal use? What if you're a dj in a party? and what if its on an internet radio? and what if its in a normal pop radio? what if its on tv?


what about making a backup copy in your computer, and listening to the original somewhere else while your roomate listens to your backup copy?

what about if you have no money for a cd at the moment, and you promiss yourself to buy the cd whenever you have it, but while you dont you record a copy of your friend's cd, while he at the same situation records a cd of yours that he for sure is going to buy soon?

what about publicly broadcasting some mix containing a song you bought (also for personal use)?

what about downloading something that you already bought but wont arrive in a while?

what about downloading some track as your dying grandma's last wish?

what about downloading some full track for preview because you need to record it to a cd and listen somewhere else, since your shitty computer speakers wont allow you to listen to these streamed samples?

what about if you live in russia (or was it finland? or both?) and your country's laws allow you to do it?

what about downloading a track that your best friend made?
DETOX
Moderator

Started Topics :  296
Posts :  6194
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 14:54
A)When a cd is being broadcasted in public then the place that broadcasts it must have a permission to do so by being a member in a special organisation at which they declare the playlist of every day.For example big radio stations or television channels give every day their playlist.Same takes place with DJ's who play in 100% legal clubs and with major internet stations.

B)You are allowed to make a copy of an original cd as long as you own the original.Listening to the original somewhere else while your roomate listens to the copy is ok,giving away your copy to someone else forever is considered as piracy.

C)When you dont have money to buy something then you simply dont buy it.Getting the cd without paying for it is piracy no matter if you buy it later on or not.I mean i want also a ferrari but i cannot afford it at the moment so i am just saving for it.

D)Check answer A.

E)Till you get the original anything else found in your pc is considered as illegal and you can be accused of piracy.Patience is a virtue.

F)What if you provide your grandma with the original and give her the chance to enjoy the cover with Frank Sinatra on it?

G)This is considered as piracy and not legal in any way.

H)Obviously if you live in a country that allows you to download music for free then theres nothing wrong with that.Is there such a country???

I)If the track is unreleased and your friend wants to send it to you then its fine.But if the track is released then it no longer belongs to your friend but to the label that licensed it and according to international laws it is illegal to download it without paying for it.

Any more questions?           Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!!
EYB
Noized

Started Topics :  111
Posts :  2849
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 16:15
Quote:

On 2005-06-14 01:54, DETOX wrote:
Dear EYB if you create something and decide to give it for free to the people then SHARING is very good in this case.

If i release a cd and i expect to get some money out of it,then if you just download it or even buy it and decide to copy it to your friends then in this case SHARING stands for STEALING.

I think we both understand the situation here




Absolutly!
           Signature
marcinito


Started Topics :  1
Posts :  9
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 16:52
First things first:
Peace to y'all!
This the first time I speak out here

This is a very interesting discussion you are having here - the problem of course is nothing new and no one has ever found a solution to it (yet). That doesn't mean that there is none.

Think about the situation of the scene and where it's heading. Think about the situation of technology in modern world and where its heading... More importantly how fast and is it limited in any way. Think about the manouvering field of law - how much it can do to stop that undesired proccess of stealing music over internet - and to what extent this law can be executed..

After a while you know all the answers to these by yourselves.

The scene.
Regarding recorded music - there are new labels and sub-labels popping out of nowhere every month. I don't know the exact number but I think I won't be much misteken if I say it's around 100 TRANCE LABELS ONLY. Does it do any good to the scene? And what tendency it shows? Forgive me but I think that most people standing behind labels feel very comfortable about the fact that they can do little and live from it. I know that all of you who run a label will now get offended, partly because of the fact that you CAN'T really make a living since all those fuckers are stealing the music over net. But let me go on. When you come to think about it - just what a label does. They find an artist sign a contract with him, and release his music. When regarding big labels or recording companies they get successful because of huge promotion and marketing. Small lables don't have money for that - they basically act only over the internet and parties. And it's good like this - if it changed there would be a million mouths shouting that psytrance got commercial (how we love this one, eh?).

If you know anything about the music industry you're aware that it doesn't really turn out that sweet after all. When a record deal is signed, a fresh artist thinks that he's just about to get a shitload of money and all the best dudes to jump around his creative proccess. Yes. And no. It's in lable's interest to make the record sound good and professional, otherwise no one will buy it. But, especially when it comes down to new faces, they are not so eager to pay a lot of money for it - it's a risk, what if the record won't sell? The common practice is that the label gives money to the artits to cut a record, but then draws that amount off of the royalties. Remember that this is an extremely simplified model. There is a million of other little tricks that make the artist exist on almost the lowest level of this pyramid. Only the consumer is lower.
Ain't it so? Tell me, cause maybe I'm wrong and psytrance labels work differently - charity maybe ;-)

The technology.
Nowadays you can download music for free. This is "thanks" to technology. This makes all the artists and labels quite pissed off because they are denied their profit. Note that internet is a place of it's own rules - it's an anarchy cyberkingdom. There are many things there that are illegal for years, you can't get it in the shop on the corner, but there - yes, no problem. Takes half an hour to search it out. Additionally the p2p technology allows users to download mp3's directly from each other which means that closing a particular website (websites hosting full lenght mp3's are illegal by law of most countries) gets you nowhere. Providing technology is not illegal. Users are the theives, but you can't find them all.
However technology is a double-blade weapon so it may be that soon someone with come with something much better (the projects that I heard of don't look to good though)

The Law.
Compared to the technology the law changes rather slowly, and acts slowly. Compared to such a thing like internet - law has very little or no power at all. End of.

Personally I think that this whole thing should be reorganized. Well, since you can't stop the traffic of illegal music then you should think of something else then making a living of selling CD's. Launch top quality mp3 (or a better codec) pay-for-download website. Those consumers who care about their favourite artists work would express their gratitude through gettting it there. The only bummer there is that some of them just love to have a finished product on their shelves. CD's in cases with colourful and extensive booklets.
The above still incudes the idea of making money on SELLING music, but I think music should be FREE (now I'm gonna get it...).
It's true that it's somebody's work, we should think of a way to protect the files, so that someone won't rename other's tune and spread under own name. If the trance scene is about unity and respect then let us see some of it, don't just talk about it. So yeah, this is somebody's work and the credits for it should not be forgotten, it takes some time to put an album together, but then it's just being copied 2000 times in a form of a CD. It's perfect, true - but nothing really unique. The unique thing is to see a live act of your favourite artist - everytime different, always one-of-a-kind. And in this case I think it should be rewarded with money.

So what it comes down to?
I think that we shouldn't be so mad that people are not paying for the music as long as their are not spreading it around under their own name. Knowing the human race, this would unfortunately require some sort of technical restriction. Internet is a great tool of promotion. The more people download your album --> the more people know it --> the more people like it --> the more people will come to see you live --> charge them properly for your real work, the great, unique, live performance.

This is just a general theory. There would be many difficulties and problems to solve, like for example who would pay for the recording costs, producers, CD production if you still want any. But I'm a musician too and although creative proccess of putting song together is work (or pleasure... or addiction ) I think my real work starts when I set up on the stage and create an hour of music you will not hear anywhere else.

Please comment and...

REZZPEKKT // REPREZZENT // ROLL
sherlockalien
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  22
Posts :  629
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 17:52
Quote:

On 2005-06-14 14:54, DETOX wrote:
A)When a cd is being broadcasted in public then the place that broadcasts it must have a permission to do so by being a member in a special organisation at which they declare the playlist of every day.For example big radio stations or television channels give every day their playlist.Same takes place with DJ's who play in 100% legal clubs and with major internet stations.

B)You are allowed to make a copy of an original cd as long as you own the original.Listening to the original somewhere else while your roomate listens to the copy is ok,giving away your copy to someone else forever is considered as piracy.

C)When you dont have money to buy something then you simply dont buy it.Getting the cd without paying for it is piracy no matter if you buy it later on or not.I mean i want also a ferrari but i cannot afford it at the moment so i am just saving for it.

D)Check answer A.

E)Till you get the original anything else found in your pc is considered as illegal and you can be accused of piracy.Patience is a virtue.

F)What if you provide your grandma with the original and give her the chance to enjoy the cover with Frank Sinatra on it?

G)This is considered as piracy and not legal in any way.

H)Obviously if you live in a country that allows you to download music for free then theres nothing wrong with that.Is there such a country???

I)If the track is unreleased and your friend wants to send it to you then its fine.But if the track is released then it no longer belongs to your friend but to the label that licensed it and according to international laws it is illegal to download it without paying for it.

Any more questions?




thank you for your answers... ok now:

about ´a)´ = so are djs doing something illegal when publicly broadcasting in parties?

about ´b)´ = but since he didnt pay for anything and you are not together with him when he listens to it, wouldnt it be illegal?

about ´c)´ so what you´re saying is that poor ppl cant listen to trance because they dont have money? thats kinda elitist no? not everybody lives in conditions similar to you.. I have shown a bit of trance to some poor friends, and they really like it, but they dont have money to buy it, and neither to go to parties.. they also are one of the few lucky ones that have a friend who owns original..

now, it seems to me that you speak solely from a legal perspective.. and I try to speak from a ´moral´ perspective.. I dont think that just because something is a law that I should follow it.. Let´s say, for example, that I was in the middle ages, and I was obliged by law to go to the church and tell on my neighbours if they danced, so they would be burned as witches.. now, that´s really fucked up, wrong (imo), so I wouldnt do it, even if its a law.. I would preffer taking my ethical point of view.. Now, of course im not saying that only buying things = making your neighbours burn and downloading = saving them, it was just one extreme example to show how following the law is not necessarily a good thing (imo)

and this is what Im trying to achieve here with you, more or less.. so for example, in the case of finland you are allowed to download.. something like that.. (I think it is.. maybe russia too.. remember those weird dodgy websites selling mp3s in russia that ppl complained here but they were legal in their country?)..

So, just because someone is from russia or finland, I still think it sucks if the person just downloads and shares everything blindly, just for their ego, never have and never will buy even though they are filthy rich, plays 96kbs mp3s in parties and never went to any party supporting the scene...

at the same time, if someone is from, lets say, Greece, and the guy buys all the music he likes whenever he can, if he goes to all parties, supporting the music, if artists stay in his house for free when they go to his city, etc, but at the same time he downloads a few mp3s here and there for listening before buying, then I dont think its a bad thing...


how about you detox? do you think we should follow the law no matter what costs, or should we follow our own ethical ideals, which at most time may be under the law but sometimes not blindly follow and do something against it?
Yuli
Retired

Started Topics :  40
Posts :  1660
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 18:08
Quote:

On 2005-06-14 16:52, marcinito wrote:
The scene.
Regarding recorded music - there are new labels and sub-labels popping out of nowhere every month. I don't know the exact number but I think I won't be much misteken if I say it's around 100 TRANCE LABELS ONLY. Does it do any good to the scene? And what tendency it shows? Forgive me but I think that most people standing behind labels feel very comfortable about the fact that they can do little and live from it. I know that all of you who run a label will now get offended, partly because of the fact that you CAN'T really make a living since all those fuckers are stealing the music over net. But let me go on. When you come to think about it - just what a label does. They find an artist sign a contract with him, and release his music. When regarding big labels or recording companies they get successful because of huge promotion and marketing. Small lables don't have money for that - they basically act only over the internet and parties. And it's good like this - if it changed there would be a million mouths shouting that psytrance got commercial (how we love this one, eh?).




I think there are far too many labels, and far too many new labels and sub labels and whatever labels just pop up like mushrooms and there are almost more labels then artists... Since the technological leap is so big last years, to open a label is not a biggie, every one can do it, and in my opinion, overall, labels loose the respect they used to have 10 years agom when every release of TIP was something to wait for ( for instance )

Quote:


Personally I think that this whole thing should be reorganized. Well, since you can't stop the traffic of illegal music then you should think of something else then making a living of selling CD's. Launch top quality mp3 (or a better codec) pay-for-download website. Those consumers who care about their favourite artists work would express their gratitude through gettting it there. The only bummer there is that some of them just love to have a finished product on their shelves. CD's in cases with colourful and extensive booklets.
The above still incudes the idea of making money on SELLING music, but I think music should be FREE (now I'm gonna get it...).
It's true that it's somebody's work, we should think of a way to protect the files, so that someone won't rename other's tune and spread under own name. If the trance scene is about unity and respect then let us see some of it, don't just talk about it. So yeah, this is somebody's work and the credits for it should not be forgotten, it takes some time to put an album together, but then it's just being copied 2000 times in a form of a CD. It's perfect, true - but nothing really unique. The unique thing is to see a live act of your favourite artist - everytime different, always one-of-a-kind. And in this case I think it should be rewarded with money.



Here I totally disagree my man. Your idea is utopic to say the least and there are too many faults in it. Lets say the artist writes music but doesnt make live performances - does this mean that he should work for free till the rest of his life? It is very noble of you to take care for the publishers rights to keep the name of the writer on the track - comon... If u ask me, I dont really care if my track gonna be released under the name of Frank Sinatra as long as I get paid for it. Ofcourse the rights are important but in the end of the day u spend time and money making this music, and RESPECT, PLUR and rest of the divine and beautiful words dont count as money in grocery store.           A man with a "master plan" is often a woman
psy^soldier
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  26
Posts :  922
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 18:25
hmm well alot of artists complien about the money. you invest time and money to make the music you like and then complien about the no money and the mp3 and everthing those things you know already so if you dont like it dont make music or make music for the mases
marcinito


Started Topics :  1
Posts :  9
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 18:40
Quote:


Here I totally disagree my man. Your idea is utopic to say the least and there are too many faults in it. Lets say the artist writes music but doesnt make live performances - does this mean that he should work for free till the rest of his life? It is very noble of you to take care for the publishers rights to keep the name of the writer on the track - comon... If u ask me, I dont really care if my track gonna be released under the name of Frank Sinatra as long as I get paid for it. Ofcourse the rights are important but in the end of the day u spend time and money making this music, and RESPECT, PLUR and rest of the divine and beautiful words dont count as money in grocery store.




Yup, I'm aware that this theory is quite utopic, but arguments like I'm-a-music-producer-but-if-you-want-to-check-me-out-buy-my-CD-cuz-I-ain't-comin'-to-show-it-to-ya don't really hold the water, you know.
Music, in my humble opinion, is not about spending couple of weeks (Dino Psaras --> a few days) and then cashing in on the 2000 times copied material that carries amount of spirit and soul that's nowhere near the amount you produce when interactng with the crowd. We're talking about the Trance scene here, right? This is not Sony, BMG, EMI, right? Cuz I wouldn't even try to tell them what i think - it's fighting windmills.
The music that you create carries a message that is applyable to the whole trance ideology, and, i hope, you make it because you relate to it. It's looks at least strange when after releasing material for the people of love and respect you simply say: "GIMME THE MONEY!"

Yuli
Retired

Started Topics :  40
Posts :  1660
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 18:48
Quote:

On 2005-06-14 18:40, marcinito wrote:

It's looks at least strange when after releasing material for the people of love and respect you simply say: "GIMME THE MONEY!"




My friend, making music out of love and enjoying ppl having fun hearing it while meanwhile getting paid for it, doesnt look so awkward to me.. Actually it looks pretty normal to me.

My other occupation is in alternative medicine, which also helps others and make them feel better - so as u see it, I should treat my patients for free, because it doesnt look right after I treat them to ask for money?... Every work that is made should be paid for. Time and knowledge are money, that is the deal, and love and compassion can go with it very well as long as one in the right course..           A man with a "master plan" is often a woman
marcinito


Started Topics :  1
Posts :  9
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 18:58
I don't see anything wrong in getting paid for PERFORMED music (also for music that you made and someone is using for promotional purposes).
I don't see anything wrong for asking more money for a live performance neither. More or less you'd be at the same place financially.

Fact is you can't stop ppl from downloading you creations.

Times are changing, technology is going forward and I seriously doubt somebody will be able to put a halt to it...
Trying to think forward - that's all.

As an artist you should read this:
http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

still, I don't know how it works in the world of psytrance.

Respect.
DETOX
Moderator

Started Topics :  296
Posts :  6194
Posted : Jun 14, 2005 20:40
Quote:

On 2005-06-14 17:52, sherlockalien wrote:

thank you for your answers... ok now:

about ´a)´ = so are djs doing something illegal when publicly broadcasting in parties?

about ´b)´ = but since he didnt pay for anything and you are not together with him when he listens to it, wouldnt it be illegal?

about ´c)´ so what you´re saying is that poor ppl cant listen to trance because they dont have money? thats kinda elitist no? not everybody lives in conditions similar to you.. I have shown a bit of trance to some poor friends, and they really like it, but they dont have money to buy it, and neither to go to parties.. they also are one of the few lucky ones that have a friend who owns original..

now, it seems to me that you speak solely from a legal perspective.. and I try to speak from a ´moral´ perspective.. I dont think that just because something is a law that I should follow it.. Let´s say, for example, that I was in the middle ages, and I was obliged by law to go to the church and tell on my neighbours if they danced, so they would be burned as witches.. now, that´s really fucked up, wrong (imo), so I wouldnt do it, even if its a law.. I would preffer taking my ethical point of view.. Now, of course im not saying that only buying things = making your neighbours burn and downloading = saving them, it was just one extreme example to show how following the law is not necessarily a good thing (imo)

and this is what Im trying to achieve here with you, more or less.. so for example, in the case of finland you are allowed to download.. something like that.. (I think it is.. maybe russia too.. remember those weird dodgy websites selling mp3s in russia that ppl complained here but they were legal in their country?)..

So, just because someone is from russia or finland, I still think it sucks if the person just downloads and shares everything blindly, just for their ego, never have and never will buy even though they are filthy rich, plays 96kbs mp3s in parties and never went to any party supporting the scene...

at the same time, if someone is from, lets say, Greece, and the guy buys all the music he likes whenever he can, if he goes to all parties, supporting the music, if artists stay in his house for free when they go to his city, etc, but at the same time he downloads a few mp3s here and there for listening before buying, then I dont think its a bad thing...


how about you detox? do you think we should follow the law no matter what costs, or should we follow our own ethical ideals, which at most time may be under the law but sometimes not blindly follow and do something against it?



A)When a DJ is playing in a big and legal club then that club pays every year some money to companies like Acum or Segem that distribute the money to the artists registered to them.If anyone from this forum is a club owner he might enlighten us even more.I dont know though what happens when a DJ just sets up two speakers in the forest lets say and organises an event with an entrance playing music.I guess that in this case it is illegal to play the music due to the 'public broadcast' reason.

B)He just listens the cd he doesnt OWN it so its cannot considered piracy i guess.If you give him for free that cd as a gift then we are talking about piracy.

C)What you obviously dont understand is that music is not a basic necessity for the people living on this planet,it is a luxury good.Being poor and not being able to buy trance music is something normal,what is not normal is being so poor that you are not able to provide yourself with a house,food,water,education and medicines.So as you can understand there is no elitistic point of view here,i am just dealing with realism,and if people need very badly to provide themself with music then they should get a second or even third job if required in order to save money for cds.

About the law thing,first of all giving an example about the middle ages is something not very wise to do,you should find a better example.We live in 2005 and laws are very very different from the ones back in those days.In any case downloading something for free is illegal according to 99% of the countries of the world.

And since you are talking about morality,how ethical and right is getting for free something that i have given money in order to produce?I mean if i payed money to release a cd and offer it to the people for free then thats fine,but if i put it out in the streets for sale and you find ways and get it for free (illegal ways) then thats not ethical at all.

By the way are you sure that people from Finland and Russia are allowed to download things for free from the internet?I highly doubt so and i have to ask you to provide me more information on this subject.

AND TO FINISH WITH THIS STORY.

You asked me what do i think concerning downloading music in both terms of law and morality.

I will give you the example that my teachers told me in my first year at college in the psychology course.

Me and my mother live in a small poor appartment.

My mother is very sick and needs a specific expensive medicine really badly but i dont have the money to buy it.

What do i have to do in order to provide it to my mother?

Many people said many things like go to the pharmacy and ask it for free and depend on the guy working there who might feel sympathy for me,some other people said to go and find a work and earn the money for the medicine,some others even said that they would leave their mother to die.

When someone said that he would break in the pharmacy and steal the medicine then the teacher asked him 'Is that legal?'

He ofcourse replied no.

Then the teacher asked 'Is that moral?'

Then nobody answered because from the one side stealing was not moral BUT saving one's life at any cost is the right thing to do.

So the teacher said to us that stealing the medicine was the right thing to do (if all other methods like asking for it wouldnt work) simply because saving a life worths more than stealing one's property.

So like i said before if music was something vital for the people then it would be fine from my side for them to download it but as long as music is considered a luxury good then people either have to pay it or be patient till they can afford it.           Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!!
sherlockalien
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  22
Posts :  629
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 01:39
I couldnt get my opinion across properly, so lets just leave it at that
Ott^
OTT

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  488
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 07:55
Detox. I admire your patience.

DETOX
Moderator

Started Topics :  296
Posts :  6194
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 14:29
Thanks OTT.

I am just trying to make people realise that downloading music illegaly is not something good for the small trance community.

If just 10% out of these people change their mind because of my words then i will be a very happy man.           Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!!
marcinito


Started Topics :  1
Posts :  9
Posted : Jun 15, 2005 15:29
Quote:

On 2005-06-14 20:40, DETOX wrote:

B)He just listens the cd he doesnt OWN it so its cannot considered piracy i guess.If you give him for free that cd as a gift then we are talking about piracy.





I'm sorry bit this is absurd....
You've never given anyone a CD as a gift?
I guess the answer is yes...
Then it makes respecting this rule just as utopic as my theory is.

And there are many rules like this.

Peace!
Trance Forum » » Forum  Trance - P.L.U.R.? P.L.U.R my a** - Brazilian style.
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