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Money question (not really off-topic)

Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  12
Posts :  1659
Posted : Apr 15, 2014 21:57:42
Greetings!
Happy Pesach to our generous hosts and happy birthday to DJ Meghan.

My question here is about the business side of the Scene. Specifically, does it make any difference for the artist how many middle-men are there between him/her and the buyer?

In other words, if I buy an album straight from the label, from BeatSpace or from Amazon/iTunes - does the producer get the same royalty (or whatever this cut is actually called)? Or does the amount become less and less because of the cut every additional middle man takes? Or is it just a one-time payment and it does not matter what happens to the actual sales?

I am asking not as an author but as a buyer. If there is a difference, I want to use the seller that would give the author the biggest commission/royalty.

tnx

P.S. I know I asked a similar question a couple years back - cannot find the thread. Besides, who knows, maybe the business runs differently now.
BraneFreeze


Started Topics :  0
Posts :  51
Posted : Apr 16, 2014 21:56
My sense, as a buyer and observer, is that the artists tend to get small fixed amounts (if anything) from the labels rather than royalties based on sales. The label's cut, which does vary with sales, is reduced if more middle men are involved (eg, primary distributors working with various secondary online outlets). The labels have to compare the cost of middle men against the cost and aggravation of setting up their own store.

I've always thought that artists and labels that go directly on their own through outlets like Bandcamp have the most practical and cost-effective arrangement. The distribution costs are fairly low and most operational headaches are avoided or greatly reduced.

Given the relatively small sales volumes of most goa / psy releases, the definition of success for most artists or labels is simply the ability to cover all costs of production and distribution. I would be greatly surprised if more than 2-3% of all releases ever made a true profit.

(Purely as a side issue, here's another thought. Given the low sales volumes, the impact of middle men on profitability is probably much smaller than the impact of choosing whether or not to release a physical CD versus a purely digital music album.)
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht

Started Topics :  282
Posts :  3394
Posted : Apr 17, 2014 22:12
digital download sites themselves take about 20%, digital distribution takes about 20%, label takes about 20%. paypal fee is if i remember right 12%.

beatport - distribution - label - artist



buy direct whenever you can.

from the mass sites bandcamp is the closest to direct.
          
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  12
Posts :  1659
Posted : Apr 17, 2014 23:00
Thanks, Faxi.
So, if I understand correctly, I should buy from the label (if the artist does not sell directly or through BandCamp), rather than through BeatSpace, iTunes etc - for the artist to get paid more. Right?

Thinkingsound, unless the artist in question is Simon Postford or at least Astrix, I seriously doubt their psytrance album sale royalties will put them above the poverty line or even above the personal tax allowance. So, even if they did report that money, they would still pay no taxes.

And as for me, I do pay taxes too and I am also concerned about how they are spent. And spending somebody's dole money on computer parts or mastering fees is not the worst-case scenario, IMHO. Somebody spending their welfare check on beer and crack would concern me much more. I am not even talking here about idiotic pork barrel projects like building high-speed rail between Reno and Las Vegas.
So, yes, I will leave your question to artists' conscience and tax man's vigilance and won't wonder about it too much.
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht

Started Topics :  282
Posts :  3394
Posted : Apr 18, 2014 01:07
Quote:

On 2014-04-17 23:00, Maine Coon wrote:
Thanks, Faxi.
So, if I understand correctly, I should buy from the label (if the artist does not sell directly or through BandCamp), rather than through BeatSpace, iTunes etc - for the artist to get paid more. Right?



correct, avoid the digital sites, the artist ends up with maybe 30%, that is if the label is honest enough to pay him, and if the sales even pass the payment threshold of the sites.           
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
Yidam
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  144
Posts :  3171
Posted : Apr 21, 2014 23:29
Quote:

On 2014-04-15 21:57:42, Maine Coon wrote:
Greetings!
Happy Pesach to our generous hosts and happy birthday to DJ Meghan.

My question here is about the business side of the Scene. Specifically, does it make any difference for the artist how many middle-men are there between him/her and the buyer?

In other words, if I buy an album straight from the label, from BeatSpace or from Amazon/iTunes - does the producer get the same royalty (or whatever this cut is actually called)? Or does the amount become less and less because of the cut every additional middle man takes? Or is it just a one-time payment and it does not matter what happens to the actual sales?

I am asking not as an author but as a buyer. If there is a difference, I want to use the seller that would give the author the biggest commission/royalty.

tnx

P.S. I know I asked a similar question a couple years back - cannot find the thread. Besides, who knows, maybe the business runs differently now.



As far as I have been observing, most regular labels today run similar to how the free net-labels do. Artist donates tracks, label publishes album/compilation and sells it to cover cost of publishing. Only difference between that and the net-labels is that publishing cost for the latter is little to nothing.

Really not sure how much of digital revenue is shared, it all comes down to honesty of the label because it is a number game down to the cents. Labels tend to put their day to day costs into operation costs in the past, if that's done there is no way there is anything left for the artist.

Artists do not disclose what the big labels are paying them so my guess is it's nothing. They just use it as an op to get gigs.

The sharks have moved to the gig scene now. Can't really scrutinise the labels in this day and age.






faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht

Started Topics :  282
Posts :  3394
Posted : Apr 21, 2014 23:31
i run a publishing label now using feiyr as our distribution.

publishing costs with a digital publisher that will spread you music to 300+ platforms indlucing the usual (bp, amazn iShit etc) for an album are 2.5e , for a whole album 10 tracks.
          
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht

Started Topics :  282
Posts :  3394
Posted : Apr 21, 2014 23:35
publishing costs and that stuff can kiss thinkinglamer's bum           
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht

Started Topics :  282
Posts :  3394
Posted : Apr 21, 2014 23:37
quting the distributor system:

"The price structure is very simple to sell songs and eBooks online and without hidden costs.
Here you see an excerpt of the main costs. The registration is for free, there are no recuring costs.
The activation of an feiyr account cost a one-time charge of 9.90. This fee has to be payed once you decide to publish a music release or an eBook on Feiyr.
Until then, you can use and test the Feiyr account for free. If you decide not to start publishing on Feiyr you will never have to pay anything.

Cost example for song or eBook distribution online:

Registration 0.00
Account Activation (one-time, on due before publishing) 9.90
Monthly charges 0.00
Annual cost 0.00
Revenue sharing (income) 80 % You, 20 % Feiyr

Publication of a bundle irrespective of type or portals: 2,36 .

Publication of an eBook, no matter how big or which portals: 4.95

You can see a detailed price list on all available services and features after the free registration.
Start today your digital distribution.



Other:
In case of early cancellation of bundles or eBooks may be a fee.
"           
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
Yidam
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  144
Posts :  3171
Posted : Apr 21, 2014 23:42
Digital publishing / digital packaging costs have been a big part of exploitation for sure, which is why Bandcamp is working much better these days.

I know about the 300+ platform services too, has it brought any real returns faxi ? I feel all those 300 platforms are just one big ocean to get lost in, nothing to be made by selling music there, especially if you're not pop-level famous.

Here's an interesting infographic...

faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht

Started Topics :  282
Posts :  3394
Posted : Apr 21, 2014 23:46
oh dude lol! for sure ---->

bandcamp > digital bullshit

we covered the price of mastering and such with badncamp.

our digital sales:
Ocean Star Empire How Small We Are 4 2.0236
Ocean Star Empire Three Dots On a Map 11 1.6301
Killik Spaetzle (Ocean Star Empire Remix) 9 1.0823
Ocean Star Empire Nuno's Abduction 3 1.0556
Ocean Star Empire Eyes in the Dark 17 0.5458
Ocean Star Empire Arrival 7 0.5115
Ocean Star Empire All Good Things 9 0.5053
Ocean Star Empire Woven Drops 3 0.4944
Ocean Star Empire Rain from Within 4 0.4902
Ocean Star Empire Phrygian Drifter 1 0.4848
Show rows<<<12>>>Showing 1 to 10 of 11 entries (filtered from 10 total entries)
Bundles
Search: <<<1>>>
Artist Title Sales Revenue
Ocean Star Empire The Purest Form 21 1.5835









Show rows<<<1>>>Showing 1 to 1 of 1 entries (filtered from 10 total entries)
Shops
<<<1>>>
Shop Sales Revenue
iTunes 20 7.1332
JUNO RECORDS LIMITED 1 0.9680
exclusive 1 0.5440
MyVideo 28 0.1151
Spotify 16 0.0573
Google Subscription 2 0.0108
Youtube / Google 1 0.0034



Show rows<<<1>>>Showing 1 to 7 of 7 entries (filtered from 10 total entries)
Countries
<<<1>>>
Country Sales Revenue
New Zealand 10 4.8480
Switzerland 8 2.2832
United Kingdom 1 0.9680
Germany 32 0.6704
United States 7 0.0184
Australia 2 0.0154
Russian Federation 4 0.0128
Sweden 2 0.0099
Portugal 3 0.0057


          
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht

Started Topics :  282
Posts :  3394
Posted : Apr 21, 2014 23:47
let's just day bandcamp saved us           
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
Yidam
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  144
Posts :  3171
Posted : Apr 22, 2014 10:34
pffff, you two seem more interested in each other than the topic.

My observation, both of you will probably never be able to sustain a musicians life because you're both synth and internet addicts. There is no viable career choice in performing that supports the buying of 1000s of dollars worth of gear every month and spending half your lives online unless you made it big right at the start. If you love gear and forums more than the process of making and playing music you're in a different scene career wise. Better to be a teacher, trainer, programmer, builder, local resident dj, engineer etc.

Every producer I've known who has made the big has done it by simply deciding what they want and then doing it without any distractions. Some who were not talented enough and knew it, worked harder, saved up and went to an institute and then came out with much more skill, and then did what they wanted. Others hired the help of talent and got to where they wanted to. Vision and drive with a healthy mix of self control.

I bet you both of you have a much more extensive knowledge of gear, history, programming, synthesis than a majority of those who have "made it" in the scene right now. Did it help you at all ?

The way I see it is that you do have a great advantage with your current knowledge, just have to decide to do the relavent thing with it... instead of bickering about who got how many gigs and put out how many albums, without any real constructive followup.

What a waste of a topic that is actually really relevant and one of the most critical questions for anyone in the scene today.

Yidam
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  144
Posts :  3171
Posted : Apr 22, 2014 10:41
btw, a lot of that was also directed at myself, because like you, I too spend a lot of time online and have more synths than I have mastered completely and can practically use in one session.

peace.
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht

Started Topics :  282
Posts :  3394
Posted : Apr 22, 2014 17:26
again with the baseless asumptions

- the reason i am so much online is because at my job i have insane amounts of free time.

- i dont have 10k$ worth of synths. if you sell all my gear maybe you have enough cash for one virus ti

and lastly, this is so not about me. i was giving me as an example because well, i am me lol the point is that there are hundreds of talented people that have the drive and the skill and make amazing music and don't get gigs and don't sell.

the % of people that perform regularly is a tiny fraction. some are talented, some are lucky, some are both.

the point here is that most people that make music for many years are far from leeches on society as implied by the dude here and have found a way to balance life with music.

we are on a psytrance underground music forum yet you fall to the mainstream idea of success trap. art to me is not measured by how "Big" you are, else we would all be saying beiber is the best musician ever right?


maybe you don't "get" me. i am not saying about our gigs or sales out of frustration, i am sharing a information about a situation of one guy, look at it like a case study that is probably reflective of 90% of people that make underground music i am actually as i have said in other places mostly happy with where i am personally.
          
The Way Back
https://faxinadu.bandcamp.com/album/the-way-back
Trance Forum  Forum  Trance - Money question (not really off-topic)

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