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LOOOOOOPING

Blink blinK

Started Topics :  3
Posts :  31
Posted : Mar 13, 2009 00:12
Quote:

On 2009-03-11 19:43, x-rayz wrote:
how could I skipped that.. Looks like we have another mills out there




but you didn't..
Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics :  33
Posts :  1560
Posted : Mar 14, 2009 13:45
I use looping all the time. Find a few bars that contain elements that work well with the current track and then filter and process as fit. I think it's great to be able to bring in elements from the upcoming track to weave things together, and without looping it's a pain having to be on your guard for how the arrangement in both tracks playing will work together.

If you want to go mental you can use some 3-4 tracks that is looping with a good selection of effects to modulate, and in that way create new tracks from existing material in real-time....of course this would mean you need a computer but for me DJ skill is not so much about being able to perform what should be straight forward tasks on cumbersome outdated equipment.
Sure, it's cool when people can perform difficult tasks, just like it would be impressive if someone could DJ blindfolded with their hand tied behind their back, but it really have nothing to do with the fundamental function of a DJ. So if the technology used does not actually improve the result it's IMHO just a gimmick...at least personally I don't go to parties to see some kind of show in the DJ booth and it's what comes out of the speakers that matters.           (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)

http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth
Blink blinK

Started Topics :  3
Posts :  31
Posted : Mar 14, 2009 18:23
Quote:

On 2009-03-14 13:45, Spindrift wrote:


....of course this would mean you need a computer





To mix with a computer is not djing though. I'm clearly aware of the benefits of looping, but still, using some software with a 'SYNC' function is just not fun. You can use technology for creating music and making live acts, but djing should still be with turntables and a mixer. (my personal opinion).
Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics :  33
Posts :  1560
Posted : Mar 14, 2009 22:00
Quote:

On 2009-03-14 18:23, Blink blinK wrote:

To mix with a computer is not djing though.


This is such a common "argument" in this kind of discussions, but it's always missing the explanation why that is and what kind of relevance the classification has in practice.
For me it obviously have zero significance what you label it as when I choose technology to use.

But I guess everyone who states that as an argument actually have some reason why it matters to them what it's called.
The only reason I can see why it would matter is if you above all else want to be able to label yourself as a DJ.
Care to explain in what way it matters what you call it?

Quote:

On 2009-03-14 18:23, Blink blinK wrote:

I'm clearly aware of the benefits of looping, but still, using some software with a 'SYNC' function is just not fun.


No, but I wouldn't call it fun to manually beatmatch either. It's something you just need to do to carry out the actual task of mixing tracks, but if you do it by pressing a button or manually will have no direct effect on the actual result.
But of course spending less time on completely uncreative tasks like looping and beatmatching manually gives you more time for creative stuff, like track selection and making nice transitions. In other words you can make more use of your actual DJ skills.

Quote:

On 2009-03-14 18:23, Blink blinK wrote:

You can use technology for creating music and making live acts, but djing should still be with turntables and a mixer. (my personal opinion).


Without stating what the actual advantages or disadvantages are that you considered to form your opinion it's really not that interesting or relevant.
You are trying to explain why one should use vinyl or CDJ's instead of computers, and you reason is that you should?
Not much of an argument is it?           (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)

http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth
mubali
Mubali

Started Topics :  71
Posts :  2219
Posted : Mar 14, 2009 23:23
I do definitely see your argument Spindrift and can sympathize with you, the main issue I have with a lot of laptop djs using the sync function is the lack of ability to make minute adjustments, just in case the warping is off or something to that effect. I do feel that having manual tactile control over the speed of which the medium is playing is one of the things that does separate someone who understands the history of djing in an electronic music based style. I like being able to correct the mix if it's just a hair off or if the phase between the two main beats are a little funky. Also, for me the fun part in djing with tactile control over the medium is the fact that you can easily mess up your mix just by over correcting or not paying enough attention. There's something to be said about being meticulous about the control of something that strikes a nice chord in my soul.

I've played with just about every software djing program around and I sometimes have a difficult time getting the touch down when I'm using controllers I cannot relate to or not using any controllers at all. I like anally retentive mixing, where you manage to make sure that if the beat somewhat skews, then you quickly correct it before you even think anyone else notices it.

Also, there have been several djs not necessarily in this genre that have layered several (more than two)tracks together using multiple players and successfully manipulated all of them, all without the use of a sync function. All it takes is practice and dedication. Track selection and making proper transitions are all part of being a good dj and can also be easily accomplished on top of beatmatching or looping as it has been done for a great number of years in many other genres. It all depends on the person however... there's many people that are content with not even mixing the tracks together. It all really depends on the person's upbringing into djing and what they feel comfortable with.

What I do like about using computers at least in part with other things for mixing is the access to a larger library of music, faster ability to find what song you are looking for, built in effects and the ability to use samplers in conjunction with the mixing. My main issue is the physical disconnection I generally feel when using either no external controls or something that doesn't really feel natural to control track tempo or etc with. This is one of the reasons why I am digging Serato Scratch and Torq. The CD and Vinyl Timecode gives me the tactile functionality that I'm comfortable with as well as using the benefits of the computer. I also like mixing through the actual dj mixer as well, because I like to do cuts and some crossfader tricks, and I've found very little software and midi controllers that can react as quickly as I've wanted them to even with my sound card latency as low as I possibly can get it. But it's honestly all about what you're used to. If you're used to mixing via computer, cool... I'm used to physically manipulating things with my hands and having the impression that if I know my music well enough, I can still have great transitions, and nice track selection on top of being able to mix it together rather well.

One more aside... If people weren't supposed to watch the dj perform, why is there a stage?           An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics :  33
Posts :  1560
Posted : Mar 15, 2009 01:59
Quote:

I do definitely see your argument Spindrift and can sympathize with you, the main issue I have with a lot of laptop djs using the sync function is the lack of ability to make minute adjustments, just in case the warping is off or something to that effect



The sync function in Traktor should not be relied on for serious use.
You have to prepare in advance applying a beat grid, or in the case with Live which I use, warp your tracks.
You can't really get more control than that and you can sync even non-sequenced stuff perfectly if you like to.
In Live you have sample precise control on not only the alignment of the tracks as a whole, but each beat as well.
So for anally retentive mixing it's unbeatable.

I used to make music before computer sequencers and MIDI was an accepted standard, and at the time I found it interesting challenge to sync various hardware sequencers manually, but there is just no way I would go back to working that way. And I don't see the attraction with doing it as a DJ either when given the option.

Quote:

Also, there have been several djs not necessarily in this genre that have layered several (more than two)tracks together using multiple players and successfully manipulated all of them, all without the use of a sync function.


Sure, there are some extremely skilled DJ's that can use vinyl or CD's to create new tracks in realtime using elements for several different tracks. And credit to them, it's impressive and I like to watch that regardless of if I actually like the music...just like I would like to see someone play a decent set blindfolded with the hands tied behind the back.
But I much rather go and listen to someone with that level of skills if he would not have to spend time keeping those discs in sync manually and instead could focus more on the track selection and transitions.
And the few DJ's I know of with those kind of skills playing trance or techno have actually started using computers.

Quote:

My main issue is the physical disconnection I generally feel when using either no external controls or something that doesn't really feel natural to control track tempo or etc with. This is one of the reasons why I am digging Serato Scratch and Torq. The CD and Vinyl Timecode gives me the tactile functionality that I'm comfortable with as well as using the benefits of the computer.



Regarding controllers there is nothing inherently less tactile with a computer, because you decide what kind of controllers you use.
If you like to make precise adjustements with a jog wheel or vinyl you can as you say get controllers for that.
The thing is that kind of controller is good for two things: beatmatching and scratching.
Since there is no need to manually beatmatch using most software like Traktor and Live, they really seem like a waste of space as far as DJ controllers go unless you are a scratch DJ...or you happen to think it will improve the set to beatmatch manually.

Finding a setup that works with your particular style of mixing can take a lot of effort, but I think that if you would look really hard you will find a cure for your physical disconnection.
For me it has taken countless hours of tweaking and refining my setup to get a result I'm happy with.
I have completely mouseless operation and dedicated knobs and buttons for every control I use.
In my case that takes 32 knobs and 60 buttons. I use four tracks, and three of those with have 14 effects available with dedicated controls that can be any VST or effect rack you like.
You only need to look the screen when selecting tracks, everything is controlled by dedicated knobs and buttons.
Despite that it might seem complex I can guarantee you I would not need more than 5 minutes to teach you how to use it. Then it of course can take a lifetime to really master DJ'ing as an art, but IMO it's only positive if one can focus is on that rather than mastering some routine for synchronizing tracks.

Quote:
If you're used to mixing via computer, cool... I'm used to physically manipulating things with my hands and having the impression that if I know my music well enough, I can still have great transitions, and nice track selection on top of being able to mix it together rather well.


Sure, I'm not saying that the results of using CDJ's is bad, but I think that a lot of DJ's is missing out on their potential because they like to stick with what they are used to.
It's very understandable and usually wise to stick with already familiar hardware when one found something that works.
It's not fun to stand in front of thousands of people and have your CD start skipping or have the computer rebooting.
But one have to strike a balance, and if the change provides enough benefits in the long run it will be worth the readjustment.

Quote:

One more aside... If people weren't supposed to watch the DJ perform, why is there a stage?


Good question, and it is quite strange, because I guess most of us agree it's usually not that interesting to see a psytrance DJ in action, yet they many times are put on a stage with everyone turned the same direction watching.
In the end it's really down to the organizer. On big commercial parties there is usually a stage, and on small forest/jungle parties it usually isn't. When I have been arranging parties I usually have made an effort to hide the DJ booth a bit since I find that improves the connection on the dance floor.
          (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)

http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth
RK9
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :  21
Posts :  210
Posted : Mar 15, 2009 09:27
Looping can be useful to achieve a smoother/longer transition if the tracks don't have a long enough intro/outro to mix with. Lots of top40/hip hop DJs use loops to achieve this when the tracks they are mixing do not come in an extended/dj friendly version.

Looping is also useful when mixing darkpsy to deal with tracks that have random extra bars or skip beats.
Psy_Clone
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  30
Posts :  397
Posted : Mar 15, 2009 12:29
A small video about looping from Richie Hawtin
one of the best DJ's (my humble opinion)







and you can see in this video that this dj who plays all around
the world in major parties let traktor sync his tracks





          Now say the magic words: Bleep Bleep Deep Deep Wham.....
Blink blinK

Started Topics :  3
Posts :  31
Posted : Mar 17, 2009 19:48

[/quote]

You are trying to explain why one should use vinyl or CDJ's instead of computers, and you reason is that you should?
Not much of an argument is it?

[/quote]

Man, I wasn't trying to argue. Besides, I'm just a 'bedroom DJ', so it's not that I can actually discover you something you didn't know.
Cheers.
Psy_Clone
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  30
Posts :  397
Posted : Mar 17, 2009 22:58
My best performances are in my bedroom
the crowd always loves me (my gf )

          Now say the magic words: Bleep Bleep Deep Deep Wham.....
x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  11
Posts :  576
Posted : Mar 17, 2009 23:24
Quote:

On 2009-03-15 12:29, Psy_Clone wrote:
and you can see in this video that this dj who plays all around
the world in major parties let traktor sync his tracks


Which doesnt mean that I have to pay him respect for doing it.. I appreciated him more when he played on vinyls..
I just dont dig spilling a bucket full of water on the crowd in the first row..           http://www.facebook.com/xrayzproductions
http://www.myspace.com/xrayzproductions
Psy_Clone
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  30
Posts :  397
Posted : Mar 17, 2009 23:50
Well when someone plays on 4 decks even if its with
traktor i have respect for him. Also if he plays on 2 sets of
vinyls i have respect. More or less it doesnt matter
the man knows how to mix, or more right to say, is he knows
what to mix and when, thats what earn my respect.

And if will get back to subject of this topic (looping) you can
see in this vid that this dj does awsome things
with looping not just buying time for a mix but also
making new sounds out of existing tracks. Now thats
some nice djing....
          Now say the magic words: Bleep Bleep Deep Deep Wham.....
Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics :  33
Posts :  1560
Posted : Mar 18, 2009 02:46
Quote:

On 2009-03-17 19:48, Blink blinK wrote:

Man, I wasn't trying to argue. Besides, I'm just a 'bedroom DJ', so it's not that I can actually discover you something you didn't know.
Cheers.


I wasn't saying you are trying to argue...putting forth an argument does not have to mean that you are arguing
I'm just trying to say that if you state what you think people should or should not do, it makes sense to actually explain your reasoning. Otherwise your statement becomes completely meaningless to whoever you make the statement for.

Why is it not DJ'ing according to you?
In what way does it matter if it should be called "DJ'ing" or not?
On what do you base the opinion that DJ'ing should be done with a mixer and turntables?

Just because you are a "bedroom DJ" doesn't mean that I'm not interesting in understanding your view.
I have been laptop DJ'ing for almost a decade now, and the kind of opinions you express is something I have had to confront continuously, and I am genuinely interested in hearing what you base your opinions on.

Quote:

On 2009-03-17 19:48, x-rayz wrote:

Which doesnt mean that I have to pay him respect for doing it.. I appreciated him more when he played on vinyls..


Are you sure you like his sets less because he is using a computer?
There is a lot of DJ's still playing vinyl/CDJ's that IMO used to be better as well.

And Hawtin is not the only one of the big name DJ's that actually have mad skills when it comes to playing vinyl/CD's that is now using Ableton or Traktor. For examples Carl Cox, Sasha, and PVD springs to mind.

Anyway, I can't say Hawtins demo sounds very impressive and I guess that unfortunately he saw it as a purely technical demo, because if that is how it sounds when he use looping in his sets I don't doubt that he was better when he played vinyl.
But I agree very much with his last comment:
"Allowing the computer to do one thing is only boring if you don't use the time the computer saves you to do something else."
Question is what is more fun, beatmatching manually or looping, processing and/or adding more stuff to the mix?
And if you choose to spend your time beatmatching manually because you think it's more fun, will it improve the result compared to if you spent that time on track selection and weaving things together with looping and processing?           (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)

http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth
Blink blinK

Started Topics :  3
Posts :  31
Posted : Mar 18, 2009 19:21
Quote:

On 2009-03-18 02:46, Spindrift wrote:
Quote:

On 2009-03-17 19:48, Blink blinK wrote:

Man, I wasn't trying to argue. Besides, I'm just a 'bedroom DJ', so it's not that I can actually discover you something you didn't know.
Cheers.


I wasn't saying you are trying to argue...putting forth an argument does not have to mean that you are arguing
I'm just trying to say that if you state what you think people should or should not do, it makes sense to actually explain your reasoning. Otherwise your statement becomes completely meaningless to whoever you make the statement for.

Why is it not DJ'ing according to you?
In what way does it matter if it should be called "DJ'ing" or not?
On what do you base the opinion that DJ'ing should be done with a mixer and turntables?

Just because you are a "bedroom DJ" doesn't mean that I'm not interesting in understanding your view.
I have been laptop DJ'ing for almost a decade now, and the kind of opinions you express is something I have had to confront continuously, and I am genuinely interested in hearing what you base your opinions on.




OK, perhaps my statement was too radical (about the 'not DJing').
But...
As far as I understand, there are 2 main qualities required from a DJ: The 1st is, of course, choosing the right music. The 2nd is knowing how to mix the music. Many great DJs are known for their great mixing skills (together with their music choice).
Since beat matching is a very important aspect of the mixing process, and perhaps the most difficult one, than matching beats manually, in front of many people, is much more difficult than pressing the SYNC button. And since it's more difficult, it is more appreciated when a DJ makes it manually (Just like it is more appreciated when a stuntman walks on a rope when there is no mattress below).
And I know that it doesn't matter for the audience how do you make the mix, but still, we are talking as (bedroom)DJ to DJ...
Following your logic, a singer can record a playback, and then it will leave him much more time & energy for creativity during the show, since there will be no need to sing. He or she will be able to dance and flirt with the crowd much better. And since there is such a good technology, painters can just use drawing software, sculptors can use CNC machines, and cinema can be made virtually by computers.
Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  170
Posts :  3642
Posted : Mar 18, 2009 19:36
Quote:

On 2009-03-17 22:58, Psy_Clone wrote:
My best performances are in my bedroom




Me too!

Oh wait, this is the djing section, nevermind.           http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group
Trance Forum » » Forum  DJing - LOOOOOOPING
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