| Author
|
Kali the Dark Goddess
|
moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Dec 18, 2008 16:38:32
|
Cool now we have a new place to continue.
And i will continue here.
So we had a discussion in the topic about dark psychedelic trance. About Kali. According to Fria Tantrumm Kali is not dark, which is what she states many times in the topic. She is not terrifying and dark. And i am ignorant and fashionable. For details read the topic Stop calling it dark.
So i asked a question that was not answered so i continue here. What about the sacrifice ritual done in India to worship Kali in her menstrual period? Why is it done? What do they try to achieve and why does she need blood? Is this traditional hinduism? Or is it an occult tantrik ritual that is done beyond the traditions?
To the mk dude. No man, i was talking about both tantra and the ritual. And by the way many people think that tantra is about how to make more experimental sex and about seeking pleasures but it is not that. Actually it is quite important to keep your sexual energy focused. Temporary solibacy is a good exercise for that. You dont need to lose your sexual energy on every step of your life, it is too precious, keep it and focus it. Culmination of the sexual act is not the purpose of all.
And it is not so amateur tantra what i was describing. I was talking about the main principle of the tantric sexual act. YOu change the symbols in your mind while you make love, oral or not oral or even just remote love of frequence interaction ( mind machines). YOu change the dark one , Kali, with Parvati, and then Sarasvati and all the others. YOu worship them all in the sexual act one after the other. And the ultimate worhsip goes to Shiva and his lingam. It is the most sacred thing in the universe, SHiva is the ultimate symbol. YOu worship the chillum ( Shiva and Parvati gave the marihuana to the mankind according to the myths) and then you worship the lingam. ANd suck off the ignorance, like Kali does. And with pranayama breath meditation you add another spiritual exercise on that. In and out. Sun and Moon. It is not amateur at all, it is what the tantrik tradition says anyway. SO i asked who has seen the Kali ritual in India?????
|
|
|
Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
368
Posted : Dec 18, 2008 17:13
|
Ohhkk...In answer to your question...animal sacrifices are very common all over the world, in many ancient religions that involved fertility Goddesses. Animal sacrifices are a fertility rite...giving blood to the earth, from which the Goddess replenishes her spent elements and gives back to us as nature, animals, plants etc.
And anyways, this is not very usual anymore. Usually only during Durga puja month in bengal. More common in Nepal however.
About Marijuana, it is not Shiva and Parvati really, but Krishna who is involved with the creation of Marijuana...Shiva saw him bathing with all the girls in a river and got a bit jealous, I forget how exactly the story goes but apparently Krishna got wounded because of Shiva, and the place where a drop of Krishna's blood fell, there grew a Cannabis tree. Shiva sat under this tree and started to feel very nice and intoxicated and realized his immaturity in feeling jealous about Krishna.
Maybe there are more stories about the origin but this is the one I have come across most commonly.
About Tantra and sex and pranaayam... I would have to say that whatever Tantra you might be practicing, it is not or cannot be the real thing. I don't intend to be rude, but alot of years of practice and discipline go into Tantra, before followers are allowed to attempt the sexual practices...this is in traditional tantra practiced by Tantriks. You need many years of Hatha Yoga, before you can attempt pranaayam. It is a fallicy of the modern age to teach pranaayam separately and at any time. First one needs to master Hatha Yoga, and complete control over the physical body, this is the preparation for pranaayam. In the most serious yoga school in India, they do not teach pranaayam until the person has learnt Hatha Yoga...your body needs to be strong and you must have subtle control over each muscle and nerve before you move on to control of the breath.
Tantriks in learning needed to first study mantra for years, yantra, hatha yoga, bhakti yoga, and then were they introduced to the sexual aspect, once they had sufficient control over every aspect of their bodies and mind. Sex was practiced with dead bodies, menstruating females etc etc..so really what you are doing is not the true form. There is nothing physical in the sexual union and usually it has to be done in a special place, inside a yantra, facing a particular direction, with some introductory rituals etc.
 **************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
|
|
|
moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Dec 18, 2008 19:48
|
yes but that is why i say she is dark. she is the dark shakti of shiva. shiva has many shaktis but kali belongs to the dark ones. cause to me the idea to sacrifice the animals and have a real bloody bath is a dark ritual.isnt it a dark ritual for you? the bloody bath that you witness on this ritual is a dark thing. it is tausands of animals and their blood.
actually all kinds of occult rituals are dark to me. elena blavatska and all the theosophs were dark too. occult science is dark. everything is dark actually. darkness is the fundamental force of the occult.
as i mentioned i am vegetarian and to me all kinds of animal sacrifice are dark. we have the christmas days in a few days and everyone will sacrifice a turkey or chicken or whatever on that days. and this is a dark thing. they pay tribute to the dark side. so the christian religion is a dark one too. not only because of the chicken but also because of lucifer. the fundamental symbol. actually lucifer was a woman, do you know that. the devil was a woman.
yes, of course it is not the tantrik thing, a real tantriker can keep his sexual energy focused to the maximum. their goal is not to culminate in the sexual act, but on the opposite. even shiva is a solibate actually, even if we see his penis everywhere in the temples, it is a symbol of solibacy and asketism.
but anyway i have some objects from this dark kali ritual from india in my own home. i cant tell you how serious and strong they are. and what i ve witnessed since i have them. it is ubelievable. and durga is the strongest of all. i keep an image of her everywhere i travell, in the hotel rooms too, i dont leave her. and she really needs blood. everytime i have her somehwhere at a new place, someone gets injured. it is incredible that it works. she needs this. one has to respect her force, otherwise you make her angry and you get injured.
and the sex, well i am self educated in the tantra rituals actually. read it in the tantra books. kali corresponding to the dark shakti of shiva. if you need the light, you take parvati, you take sarasvati, you take anyone else but not kali. kali is the bitch so the say.
|
|
|
|
Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
368
Posted : Dec 18, 2008 20:47
|
Tina..... Parvati, Saraswati are not Tantrik goddesses and have no place in Tantra...please read some proper books on the matter.
Kali is not the "dark" Shakti of Shiva, she is merely "Shakti" in Tantra...to call her a bitch is blasphemy and many a naga baba friend of yours would find it extremely pathetic of you.
We do not sacrifice 1000's of animals anywhere in any temple in India...these are very old things you talk off. And there is nothing dark about it...When you say these Goddesses need blood, you really are looking at it from some Indiana Jones context...the blood is symbolic of attachment to the body and ego and etc. Killing animals maybe "dark" to you, but the Hindu religion is Not strictly vegetarian...warriors were meant to eat meat, as they did physical activity that required meat (as stated in Ayurveda)..
You insists she is dark, she needs blood, she's a bitch (so they say but who the hell is this they??)...man come on...you really got all the concepts wrong, completely confused.
Kali is not the devil, she is the mother, she is not dark power, she is none of these things.
Tantra is not Hinduism and neither is it completely occult....most people are only lured to the left hand path which might be occultish in nature, but it is highly misused and misunderstood. The whole concept is to practice rituals that get you nearer to the divine. Aghora tradition considered that if everything was created by the divine then nothing can be termed "Dirty" or Impure...thus aghora baba's eat raw flesh, drink their urine, eat faeces....because to them nothing is considered "BAD" or "negative". So thats why the blood sacrifices are not considered "dark", or walking around in a graveyard is not considered "weird" or drinking urine from a human skull is not considered "Yucky". It is all made by the Divine and goes to the divine.
**************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
|
|
|
AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
911
Posted : Dec 18, 2008 22:51
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-18 19:48, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
yes but that is why i say she is dark. she is the dark shakti of shiva. shiva has many shaktis but kali belongs to the dark ones. cause to me the idea to sacrifice the animals and have a real bloody bath is a dark ritual.isnt it a dark ritual for you? the bloody bath that you witness on this ritual is a dark thing. it is tausands of animals and their blood.
actually all kinds of occult rituals are dark to me. elena blavatska and all the theosophs were dark too. occult science is dark. everything is dark actually. darkness is the fundamental force of the occult.
as i mentioned i am vegetarian and to me all kinds of animal sacrifice are dark. we have the christmas days in a few days and everyone will sacrifice a turkey or chicken or whatever on that days. and this is a dark thing. they pay tribute to the dark side. so the christian religion is a dark one too. not only because of the chicken but also because of lucifer. the fundamental symbol. actually lucifer was a woman, do you know that. the devil was a woman.
yes, of course it is not the tantrik thing, a real tantriker can keep his sexual energy focused to the maximum. their goal is not to culminate in the sexual act, but on the opposite. even shiva is a solibate actually, even if we see his penis everywhere in the temples, it is a symbol of solibacy and asketism.
but anyway i have some objects from this dark kali ritual from india in my own home. i cant tell you how serious and strong they are. and what i ve witnessed since i have them. it is ubelievable. and durga is the strongest of all. i keep an image of her everywhere i travell, in the hotel rooms too, i dont leave her. and she really needs blood. everytime i have her somehwhere at a new place, someone gets injured. it is incredible that it works. she needs this. one has to respect her force, otherwise you make her angry and you get injured.
and the sex, well i am self educated in the tantra rituals actually. read it in the tantra books. kali corresponding to the dark shakti of shiva. if you need the light, you take parvati, you take sarasvati, you take anyone else but not kali. kali is the bitch so the say.
|
|
Another explanation for why Animal Sacrifice is not some "Dark" Ritual like you claim, Is the fact that like Fria said Hinduism is not completely Vegetarian, there are those that eat meat. Meat = Something of great value. The blood can be considered something pure. This ritual is quite rare now, I know there is a temple in Nepal where they do it, but even after the animal is sacrificed and blood is poured on the mandir, there are butchers at the temple that cut up the meat and it is given back to the family. The meat has been blessed and they then eat it.
If you want to consider Kali something Dark then go ahead, but it is incorrect. Go ask anyone of the millions of people in India who worship her, they will all tell you that they consider her more like a caring mother goddess then some dark figure. |
|
|
|
A.Rosengren
Solid Snake
Started Topics :
266
Posts :
4138
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 00:18
|
Quote:
|
as i mentioned i am vegetarian and to me all kinds of animal sacrifice are dark. we have the christmas days in a few days and everyone will sacrifice a turkey or chicken or whatever on that days. and this is a dark thing. they pay tribute to the dark side.
|
|
Perhaps you think its narrowminded of me to think "sacraficing" is the wrong word for sharing a nice meal together with your family. But hey my butt smells diffrent than yours. Im just saying, you should perhaps in my humble opinion (that means i do not force you into anything) look for light in things instead of darkness? I for one would get lonely in all that darkness you are talking about. Allthou this is my last visit to this section (you guys scare the shit out of me) i wish you good luck :)
A
|
|
|
|
Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 00:50
|
I can just agree that I don't really find ritual sacrifices dark, at least not in practice.
I have been to a sacrifice in Bengal and it was a colourful event with some seemingly happy goats that got beheaded resulting in a big feast for men and dogs. I would say that the average BBQ party is darker since the animals will have been killed with a lot less respect.
Still the symbolism is dark...not in the sense that it's evil or sinister, but death is something I would label as dark, even if it in extension leads to new life.
If Kali is not dark, then can someone mention a Hindu deity that does represent the dark?
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
|
|
|
Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
368
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 02:32
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-19 00:50, Spindrift wrote:
If Kali is not dark, then can someone mention a Hindu deity that does represent the dark?
|
|
Yama : God of Death..
Rahu : One of the Nine planets worshiped, but this one is considered inauspicious. In Buddhism Rahu is one of the krodhadevatas (terror-inspiring gods).
But when you say "Dark" what do you mean exactly ?? You say "death" is something "Dark" but in Hinduism it is a means to freedom from the never ending cycle of births..it is life that is actually "dark".
Ok, I understand that the imagery, with the blood and the severed heads, and the garland of hands is what makes people think of "dark and terrifying" but it is all symbolic of a means to inner peace, non attachment and Brahman.
**************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
|
|
|
Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 03:28
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-19 02:32, Fria Tantrumm wrote:
But when you say "Dark" what do you mean exactly ?? You say "death" is something "Dark" but in Hinduism it is a means to freedom from the never ending cycle of births..it is life that is actually "dark".
|
|
Before I write another massive essay, if you haven't already, read the post I made in the old thread:
http://forum.isratrance.com/stop-calling-psy-dark/page43/
It's a bit long-winded, but I explain some what I perceive as very core concepts of the mechanics behind how the void, light and dark interrelate, and it should hopefully explain my view on what I mean with "dark".
For me there is no contradiction to say that he represents the dark force and at the same time see her as a loving mother.
Basically in my view it's not the fact that Kali represents the dark that is a common misunderstanding, but rather what dark actually represents.
The whole dualistic God, Devil, heaven and hell view is engrained in most westerners still today even with a very low percentage who actually confess to any faith. Now we don't get it through the church but from Hollywood and media.
I don't believe in that separation of the forces responsible for creation and see them as one.
But if I want to understand how a watch works I pick it apart and look at the function of each of the individual cogs in the machinery. That way I can understand how it works...not by sitting staring at it ticking away.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
|
|
|
mk47
Inactive User
Started Topics :
118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 07:19
|
Quote:
|
moki wrote :
..I was talking about the main principle of the tantric sexual act. YOu change the symbols in your mind while you make love, oral or not oral or even just remote love of frequence interaction ( mind machines). YOu change the dark one , Kali, with Parvati, and then Sarasvati and all the others. YOu worship them all in the sexual act one after the other.
|
|
so i should close my eyes and try and visualise my girl as parvati , saraswati etc while im fucking ? please explain ..
|
|
|
|
moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 11:54
|
so again i dont know why but i feel so negative frequencies here...and i lose the apetit of discussing. i dont know. ( except the mk dude, i will explain right now, mate  ))) fucking is a nice theme:)))))
people i dont know any other ritual where so much blood is being spread over the place like the kali ritual in india that i mentioned ( well ok may be voodoo but i havent seen voodoo in reality). i dont know hoe many of you have seen it. but i am sure not many. the christmas is a joke in comparison to that and i only mentioned it cause i wanna calm down the indian mates who thing that i am trying to put my culture over theirs. but really christmas is a joke in comparison to that. ppl just eat and dont even sacrifice anything. the kali ritual is a terrifying place. it is a terrifying view. it is literally a bloody bath. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? and if it is not dark for you, then you are just ..well okey, i am tired of using the word fucking in the wrong context. you dont deserve the vibration of this beautiful word.
so, mk, yes, you visualize your girl as the different symbols. and she visualizes you too. you change between shiva vishnu and brahma.
you dont necesserily need to close your eys, depends on your sexual preferations how you like to do it.
and you visualize the sun and moon too. just take any book of tantra and it is all there. and the main thing for the male part. try to focus it. not culminate fast. this is the only thing. which turnes to be the most difficult though.
and i am sure that the european and american literature about tantra is not so wrong as fria tantrumm tries to state. actually i find it incredibly abusing to say that kali is not dark.
|
|
|
|
shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 13:22
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-19 11:54, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
so again i dont know why but i feel so negative frequencies here... |
|
Maybe you should check within yourself why your posts arouse such negative responses. That is what I usually do if this happens to me. Found it to be a great tool.
And a general thought that occurred to me while following these conversations about Indian Culture.
First, I'd like to say that I was an MA student for Indian studies, studied two Indian languages, visited India quite a lot of times over a span of 13 years, and travelled there extensively, read A LOT about India and Indian culture, and also experienced that culture quite a lot.
With all that background I feel quite reluctant to respond to most of these discussions that have so many definite and clear cut sayings about the subject. I myself am not sure about these things, even though I studied them and read about them more than some of you. I think you ppl should be a bit more careful and humble too.
Why is that? If there is something I've learned about Indian culture and view of the world is how complex it is. We're talking about 3000 years over a huge geographical area and huge sub-cultural diversity. Just to give an example- what Kali are you talking about? Vaishnavite? Shaiva? Shakta? From where is this Kali? Bengal? Tamil Nadu? From what time? What are your literary sources? Vedic? Puranic? Ramakrishna? And I can go on and on.
It doesn't mean we cannot make general observations about Kali, just that we have to do a lot of research and that we have use certain methods and be careful about what we say (I won't go into academic discussion here).
Another thing that I advise to the non-Indians of us in this discussion, and to anyone making observations, and more so, interpretations, of another culture- be extra careful. Remember that you do not share the basic views and perspectives on life with the culture you are observing and interpreting. You do not even really share its language, the basic thing that creates our view of the world. Again an example- you talk about colors- did you ever think about the fact that there are colors which a westerner and Indian will classify differently? Two colors that in the west will be different shades of red, may be considered as totally different colors in India. Or, as I mentioned in another thread- you all talk about symbolism in Indian culture- while a professor of mine and someone who is considered to be one of most respected ppl in the field of Indian studies makes a very interesting claim that symbolism as it was defined in the west, does not even exist in India. See how deep this goes?
So, I suggest we talk about our interpretations and views instead of how things are or how others see them. That is much more humble and close to the truth. It will also save a lot of aggravation and hurting others' feelings and enable us to actually learn something from each other.
---------------------------------------------
"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
|
|
|
|
mk47
Inactive User
Started Topics :
118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 13:50
|
wise words shahar , hey moki , im no expert and apart from having weird mystical almost sex on psychedelic drugs a few times i don't know about this whole holy sex business .. but i doubt seriously about visualizing saraswati in a carnal manner , lol .. i think shes the goddess of knowledge , most schools have morning prayers with a statue around somewhere , at least a few i attended earlier ..
and what part of india did u witness this kali animal sacrifice ? what kind of animals were they sacrificing , cows , goats , pigs .. the edible ones or dogs etc ? strange occult shit this , im guessing it couldnt ave been a big event , theyr very sensitive about cows as u must know .. we even have a law in the constitution i think .. ill look it up
|
|
|
|
Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
368
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 14:05
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-19 11:54, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
and i am sure that the european and american literature about tantra is not so wrong as fria tantrumm tries to state. actually i find it incredibly abusing to say that kali is not dark.
|
|
Tina, your European and American literature on Tantra is exactly what you say it is.....European and American. It is not traditional Indian Tantra, thus we do not agree.
Hindusim doesn't really have a concept of Hell...the Hell is to be born again and to have to endure one more life to burn one's Karma. Thus death is not so much a Dark concept, it is the life that is painfull and dark usually, as in the lifetime one has to be continuously conscious of ones actions and words...SO Kali's role as the Ego destroyer is an act of liberation, as taking away the Ego is one of the main attributes to ensuring liberation from yet another life. So you'll might find her "Dark" and that's fine....but I will continue to insist that it is merely the imagery that is dark and the concept is the opposite. Most Indians worship Kali, and to them she is the mother, how can you argue this...she wears colourfull clothes, is offered colourfull flowers....is adorned with Shiny jewellery...she is revered as a Mother..That's why she is called Kali Ma ( Ma= mother).If you say people are fearfull of her, they fear her as a child fears it's mother when doing something wrong...Indian's are very superstitious and many believe in Karma, the fear stems from the fact that these deities are ever watching over us and every deed is recorded...but that is the only fear and it is directed at all Gods.
Tantra firstly should not be attempted without a teacher....a teacher to guide and control one, as it is the weakness of all humans to lack control....thus Tantra incorporates years of Yoga, Guru Diksha (acting like a servant for your Guru), Bhakti yoga and saadhna...this is alot of preparation to make the body and mind focused and strong. Many famous Tantriks skipped the enitre sexual part actually, as Ramakrishna - a great Tantrik, but it is a trend of the West, to harp on the sexual aspect of Tantra...Once again..you must have studied and practiced many other disciplines for many years before you attempt Yoni Tantra..your entire lifestyle must continuously be dedicated to this one endeavour...Merely opening a book, reading some stuff and then practicing is just not the REAL stuff.
**************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
|
|
|
Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
368
Posted : Dec 19, 2008 14:47
|
Oh I also wanted to add, Tina if you get something out of your Tantrik practices then that is all that really matters. The mind is a powerfull thing, and as long as you feel it benefits you in some way then that is all that is important, irrelevant of whether it's real or amateur, American or Indian. It works for you and that's sooper.
**************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
|
|
|
|
