Jugolovski
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 28, 2014 03:11:21
Hello people,
I have a question about kick and bass, possibly as it is funny for one or the other.
if you kick and bass in the same key but makes the kick drum 1 octave higher could kick and bass separate very well.
or missing then the lowend?
for example: Bass G1 - G2 Kick
LG Michael ....
TranceAphobic
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Posted : Jan 28, 2014 09:52
I would not recommend that, especially with the kick-drum. Well it depends on the genre, but if you’re talking about psytrance then note that the kick has to be the loudest in volume and have the loudest frequency in the spectrum.
The Bass-line drives the song and the kick anchors it. With a louder bass-line the track is going to sound a bit flabby and mess with the synchronicity. There are many other ways to separate the kick&bass.
1.) Use an EQ and cut the bass-line with a medium Q @ about 50-60hz with about 4-6db, and boost @ 100hz with about 2-3db. This gives a low-end gap for the kick to sit in and give the bassline some power. You can do it visa versa, cutting the kick @ 100hz to give a gap for the bass-line, however be careful so the kick does not lose its thump @ 100hz.
2.) Using quantization with WAV samples to cut the end points 100% out of each other’s way, so each one stops exactly when the other starts.
3.) Pan kick 1%Left and bass 1%R (in mono), found that it can nicely separate the frequencies and provide some space for one another.
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : Jan 28, 2014 10:10
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Posted : Jan 28, 2014 10:15
Quote:
On 2014-01-28 03:11:21, Jugolovski wrote:
Hello people,
I have a question about kick and bass, possibly as it is funny for one or the other.
if you kick and bass in the same key but makes the kick drum 1 octave higher could kick and bass separate very well.
or missing then the lowend?
for example: Bass G1 - G2 Kick
LG Michael ....
Yes absolutely, I've done that a few times in fact... if done right it can sound great. I hear so many full-on psy tracks these days which have kicks that peak up there in the 70-80 Hz range. Here is some for example:
There is no reason why the kick could not be around the 80-90 Hz region and the bass 40 Hz. In fact that can sound a lot better than having both at 40 Hz sometimes.
But you have to synthesize the kick correctly, EQ it a bit and set the decay properly so it blends in well and make sure it is in tune with the bassline.
It also doesn't need to be separated by a whole octave, even just a few notes up can work great (but make sure that it is in key).
Jugolovski
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 28, 2014 15:14
wow, super thanks for the reply. You are the best
LG Michael ......
Analog Archangel
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Posted : Jan 28, 2014 17:35
No question is stupid brother, everything is a learning process, it's all knowledge and asking these questions is healthy, please don't feel bad about whether or not you're asking a stupid question.
~Peace
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 28, 2014 20:51
I wouldn't pan the low end stuff myself either.
Why? Well, our ears can detect the origin of a sound, it's placement in space. But that's frequency dependant. Sub frequencies are more felt then heard, and bass is usually something that reaches us without a precise location in nature. That's the psycoaccoustic side of it.
Then, there's the practical side. most clubs these days have stereo systems, ok. but low end instruments, those that drive the track, you want the presence to be there underneath everything else, since it's what drives the track. and people don't usually pack together in the sweet spot in clubs or outdoor parties. Myself, I like to keep everything mono from 250Hz down.
About the question, I don't think you'd have any trouble. It's a misconception that both kick and bass need a lot of subs, usually you need it on only one of the two, and using harmonicly related tunnings for each, you get the roll feeling just as well and should present no problems at all.
Tons of music being released with the Kick hitting somewhere close to 100Hz and bass lower, or the other way around.
vipal
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 29, 2014 18:39
moleqlarsuperstructure
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 31, 2014 17:49
Quote:
On 2014-01-28 20:51, frisbeehead wrote:
I wouldn't pan the low end stuff myself either.
Why? Well, our ears can detect the origin of a sound, it's placement in space. But that's frequency dependant. Sub frequencies are more felt then heard, and bass is usually something that reaches us without a precise location in nature. That's the psycoaccoustic side of it.
Then, there's the practical side. most clubs these days have stereo systems, ok. but low end instruments, those that drive the track, you want the presence to be there underneath everything else, since it's what drives the track. and people don't usually pack together in the sweet spot in clubs or outdoor parties. Myself, I like to keep everything mono from 250Hz down.
About the question, I don't think you'd have any trouble. It's a misconception that both kick and bass need a lot of subs, usually you need it on only one of the two, and using harmonicly related tunnings for each, you get the roll feeling just as well and should present no problems at all.
Tons of music being released with the Kick hitting somewhere close to 100Hz and bass lower, or the other way around.
well i would say if you pan your kick n bass like 1 or 0.5 %. it is still mono anyway. you are really not able to hear whats more left or right (maybe with headphones if you listen very very close to it. but who does on party?). but you have definitelly more space. sounds more like real music in my ears. even just the kick n bass alone.
something i detect in much electronic music is that artist have unterstood that there are two soundsources on the left and on the right and a phantom source from the center. but there is also alot of space between this 3 spots
listen to pink floyd's division bell is a wonderfull example for stereo... or madonnas frozen.
compare to any psy besides shpongle or ott
just because clubs have mono systems there is no need to produce music mono. much people will enjoy on headphones or elsewhere. even you!
http://soundcloud.com/neonjade
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Jan 31, 2014 18:09
Our ears can't tell the direction of low bass frequencies, plus you get more air moving with both speakers working the same amount. As you say, it's not unusual for clubs have the subs in mono, and how do you know they're not just taking a feed from one side of the stereo image? To make sure your bass is always balanced in the mix properly it's a good idea to keep sub-bass frequencies in the centre of the stereo image.
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moleqlarsuperstructure
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2014 12:47
you really cant make out a difference if you compare the left and the right speaker alone...
maybe its a placebo effect or some digital stuff going on there that gives you more space. hmm dont know how to say. the kick n bass.. like breathing more. psychoacoustics wordks untill 10 db difference and this tech is maybe 0.2db difference ^^
but your bassline will sound diffrent in any system in any venue.
but honestly i do not hold in my mind that my sound will be played on mono systems... wich is a disgrace anyway
faxinadu
Faxi Nadu / Elmooht
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Posted : Feb 4, 2014 02:53
"well i would say if you pan your kick n bass like 1 or 0.5 %. it is still mono anyway. you are really not able to hear whats more left or right (maybe with headphones if you listen very very close to it. but who does on party?). but you have definitelly more space. sounds more like real music in my ears. even just the kick n bass alone.
something i detect in much electronic music is that artist have unterstood that there are two soundsources on the left and on the right and a phantom source from the center. but there is also alot of space between this 3 spots"
thats just wrong man.... you can't compare pink floyd and beatles and such to trance music that makes high volume and highly compressed usage of low end frequencies. why fuck around with it? the question is not if you can hear it in a certain situation, it is doing all you can to make sure your mix sounds as good as possible in ALL situations, and that includes taking care of clean phase in the extreme low end.
...and just a thought, YES, you for sure can hear it, if you are monitoring in a small room like i am sure most people here are, then having one side have more power than the other side will surely obscure the relations and cause weird acoustic responces from your room causing cancelations/enforcments that should not be there, and cause you to make mixing mistakes you could have avoided.
again, we are not talking about "bassy sounds", we are talking here about the extreme low end, whatever you got in your bottom well, 30-100hz area lets say. if you wanna put phasers and flangers on your bassline for a stereo picture and know what you are doing then cool, but in that case you have the energy drifting from side to side and not just mixed stuck with more power on one side, so its not the same and less of an issue, and even then i wouldn't put it on the lowest ranges but rather use layering.
moleqlarsuperstructure
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Feb 5, 2014 20:26
ok, you are right guys
but pleasy try this method though
take stereo bass and stereo kick pan them 0.5% each. send on new bus and make that bus mono. maybe just bullshit. maybe some black magic ? cheers
http://soundcloud.com/neonjade
