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Is the Eastern solution right for the Western person?
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Kaz
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Posted : Jan 1, 2009 22:19:03
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Eastern philosophy, practices and religion have been gaining huge support in the Western world, and it most definitely has given many people answers where they found none before. But take away the fashion of it, and let's be honest here - when looking at the solutions that have been offered, the condescension of the people from the countries who originated that spirituality towards others who find a liking to their philosophies, and the fact that most people never bother trying out the solutions that are readily available to them... Is it the right choice?
I've known people from Germany who could quote Confucius but not Nietzsche, people from Italy who could quote modern yoga masters but never bothered listening to the pope, Israelis that are fluent in Buddhism but know nothing of Jewish philosophy, and the big question remains: Are they ignoring what they are in favor of trying to be something else? Is there not a bit of hatred of the self in that choice?
My answer would probably come from Taoism (well, at least a "modern" version of it): each person has his own path. But I will add: people ignore what is right in front of them. Sometimes, the answer is obvious.
I will say one thing: Western philosophy is not inferior in any way to Eastern philosophy. Eastern philosophy is centered around the salvation/enlightenment of a single soul, while the Western philosophy is aimed at communities.
What do you think?
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Pavel
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Posted : Jan 1, 2009 22:51
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All I say is that it makes me sad to see Jewish people falling into Eastern philosophy while we have such an evolved philosophy and heritage ourselves. Thanks to ultra-religious phanatics that made it completely unappealing to the secular youth. People don't really need to fly to India to get enlightened. We did create the Bible and loads of literature around it.
My 0.02 shekels
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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Pure Perception Records
Pure Perception Records
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 03:46
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good topic. i wonder about this often, everyone seems to know so much about the eastern practices but do not bother at all to gain insight from the knowledge thats right in front of them Christianity, Judaism,... all religions have there pros and cons..
but the 'cool' generation will always feel they need to find their answers elsewhere. i think its a good thing though as long as your being open to all sides. sure read the Bhagavad Gita but also read the Book of Romans, read the Corpus Hermetica but also read Genesis, I think that a broader understanding of all religions will help us to find our own truth and at the same time understand each other more. But you have to read as much as possible.
I definitely think that the hard core fundamentalist on all sides makes people shy away from whats right in front of them and seek answers elsewhere.
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sure_smoke_alot
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 06:27
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On 2009-01-01 22:51, Pavel wrote:
People don't really need to fly to India to get enlightened.
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there was a zen lady who got enlightened by a falling water pot which she was carrying 
the problem with valuing art is, till u dont understand it, it's worthless but wen u do understand it, it's priceless!! |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 10:32
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On 2009-01-01 22:51, Pavel wrote:
All I say is that it makes me sad to see Jewish people falling into Eastern philosophy |
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Falling? Why Falling? You've joined habad lately without telling, Pavel? Wanna save some souls?
Nice topic Kaz. And a very complex issues with many aspects to it.
Some observations and thoughts:
"Eastern" philosophy or "Western" philosophy are very broad and loose terms. There are many kinds of ways of looking at the world in the "East" and the "West" that have no connections between them.
Therefore, I would have rephrased the topic thus:
Why do we go looking for answer in other cultures and in other schools of thought often, and don't explore our own culture first?
I can offer few possible answers:
1. We want out. A lot of times people feel confined within the basic rules or perspectives their culture offers, growing with them makes it hard to critically examine them and develop. Checking out new perspectives can give you a much better view on things.
2. We want something new. Sometimes the familiar is boring. Exploring new things and new ideas is fun.
3. Our own culture doesn't appeal to us. That can happen. Often.
4. We feel our own culture is missing something. That can happen often, too. And for a good reason- we're always missing something. We're human.
5. We connect to a another culture better, or to some aspect in it. That can also happen. Happened to me.
6. We want to be eclectic- take things that suit us from different places, cultures and philosophies. That is something that couldn't be done in the past. Our world today enables us to do that. Personally I find it amazing. For me its the greatest gift there is. The ability to connect with and experience The Other and be able to learn how The Other perceives the world. It made me a better person and made me better qualified to evaluate the culture I was born into and live in. Hopefully it'll also give me a chance to improve it.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 15:03
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On 2009-01-01 22:19:03, Kaz wrote:
Eastern philosophy is centered around the salvation/enlightenment of a single soul, while the Western philosophy is aimed at communities.
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Kaz, I think this sentence is just not true. It stems from misconceptions and superficial generalizations that are common in today's new age world.
Some examples:
Confucianism- a very "Eastern" philosophy of life- is anything but centered on the individual. It's a highly communal, individual-is-last, way of constructing the world.
Indian Vedic society and a lot of the early Vedic philosophies are very far from being centered on the individual. If fact, the old Vedic society was one of the most structured, non-mobile, societies ever to exist on earth, were the individual had very little space (which can probably explain the reaction that came from later-date Indian philosophies seeking individual salvation, be it Buddhism, Jainism or the whole Upanishadic way of life).
On the other hand:
Descartes is very far from dealing with communities- his Meditations are a pure individual search for an answer to the individual's existence (that leads him to the realization of god).
Most of the Christians are interested mainly in individual salvation.
Barkley's Solipsism if as far as you can go from dealing with communities (he proves that nothing exists outside our mind, basically).
Existentialism is very much an individual search for an answer and deals with our existence in this world.
And I can go on and on.
Both "Eastern" and "Western" philosophies are very diverse and offer a multitude of approaches and observations on the world. There are many similarities that will surprise you and also many cross influences that came from meeting points along history.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Kaz
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 17:46
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The main source of Western Philosophy is not Descartes but the Bible - which gives basic rules in order for everyone's life to be bettered through the acts of singles, that no man has the right to do anything he pleases.
Just as Taoism evolved greatly (started out as "The Way of the Spirits", went to "The Way of the Ancestors", and is now just "The Way"), so have the core 'Western' beliefs, including many ideas that are even contrary to the roots from whence they came. I can give counter-examples, but I had written the original post in a subtly inflammatory way, using inaccurate generalizations. But they are not meritless.
Allow me to give this example though: the highest degree in academic study is a PhD (Philosopher's Degree), and you can only get that by giving the entire world something new. This is what I see as the end result of Descartes and Plato - striving for personal excellence in order to create something for everyone. This is a true example of how strongly communal these philosophies are.
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Pavel
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 17:57
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On 2009-01-02 10:32, shahar wrote:
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On 2009-01-01 22:51, Pavel wrote:
All I say is that it makes me sad to see Jewish people falling into Eastern philosophy |
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Falling? Why Falling? You've joined habad lately without telling, Pavel? Wanna save some souls?
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"Falling into" wasn't the right term I guess.
No no, I am not going "strong" yet hehe. No worries
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full_lotus
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 18:51
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But Judaism and Christianity didn't originate in the west last time I checked, unless you consider Israel as part of the 'West'. In any case most religions are trying to get to the same destination, they're only taking different paths to get there imho
Turn On, Tune In, Trance Out!!!
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Justin Chaos
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 22:41
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Quote:
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On 2009-01-01 22:51, Pavel wrote:
All I say is that it makes me sad to see Jewish people falling into Eastern philosophy while we have such an evolved philosophy and heritage ourselves. Thanks to ultra-religious phanatics that made it completely unappealing to the secular youth. People don't really need to fly to India to get enlightened. We did create the Bible and loads of literature around it.
My 0.02 shekels
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WTF???
You a fundamentalist now???
Gimme a break
Anyway, good thread.
My fake plants died, because I did not pretend to water them. |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Jan 2, 2009 23:29
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On 2009-01-02 17:46, Kaz wrote:
The main source of Western Philosophy is not Descartes but the Bible
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Again I do not agree, Kaz. The main source of what you call Western philosophy is Greek philosophy, the Greeks had nothing to do with the bible.
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- which gives basic rules in order for everyone's life to be bettered through the acts of singles, that no man has the right to do anything he pleases.
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But that is common to every human society on earth, and even to quite a few non-human ones.
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This is what I see as the end result of Descartes and Plato - striving for personal excellence in order to create something for everyone. This is a true example of how strongly communal these philosophies are.
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And again I can easily counter that with an "Eastern" example. Check the Laws of Manu, all rules that arranges the individual's life to better society's life. And there are other countless examples. Every society sets rules that control the individual's behaviour to better the life of the community. That is the meaning of a society.
Actually it is "Western" philosophy which brought upon us one of the least communal schools of thoughts, neo-liberal-capitalism, that seems to be running the world these days. In this system it is actually the whole community which works and srives in order to create something for a selected few individuals.
And as you say, you can bring counter examples to mine, which is exactly my point. Both what you call "Eastern" and "Western" philosophies are very diverse and offer a multitude of approaches and observations on the world. I think the dichotomy you create here is superficial and not true and is over-generalized, way over.
But maybe we should go back to the question of why we look to other cultures to find our answers. It is a good one.
---------------------------------------------
"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Pure Perception Records
Pure Perception Records
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Posted : Jan 3, 2009 00:20
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On 2009-01-02 18:51, full_lotus wrote:
But Judaism and Christianity didn't originate in the west last time I checked,
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Good point, and which is one of the reasons why they are just as mystical, and 'enlighten' as the far east philosophies. But when Constantine converted the whole empire to Christianity around 330 AD it did bring it into the west. Before that the west was mostly pagans, and the far west (Americans) were the Natives. I seriously doubt Constantine had any concern with Jesus, but saw a good way to keep control of the empire.
"This is what I see as the end result of Descartes and Plato - striving for personal excellence in order to create something for everyone." ----- All cultures, societies, and religions are based around 'personal excellence' and bettering ones self for the benefit of the whole community. There certainly isn't one path to 'personal excellence' as they all have the same goal. Kinda like there are many ways to the top of the pyramid yet they all reach the pinnacle....
actually the western renaissance brought about some of the most individualism in human history.
I do think the better question is why people are turning away...
I think a lot of it has to do with people feeling that the eastern religions are not as condemning on behavior. As mainstream Judaism, Christianity and Catholicism are based around the Law (yet no religion permits excessiveness or any other craziness). But the fundamentalist make people in the western world scared of God. People have an impression of God as sitting on a cloud pissed off all day at what your doing. But if we as humans have the capability to be compassionate and forgiving how can we view the Ultimate Supreme as someone who inst compassionate. So this is damaging to the relationship between us as humans and the Ultimate Supreme.
but..
If people are searching to the east for answers, who cares, at least they are searching! the thing that scares me the most is atheism. which has become very prominent in western society, and could come to really hurt us in the future. if you truly seek though you should give your own culture a try. not hearing from someone else but reading it on your own.
-Kameleon |
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Pavel
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Posted : Jan 3, 2009 15:28
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On 2009-01-02 22:41, Justin Chaos wrote:
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On 2009-01-01 22:51, Pavel wrote:
All I say is that it makes me sad to see Jewish people falling into Eastern philosophy while we have such an evolved philosophy and heritage ourselves. Thanks to ultra-religious phanatics that made it completely unappealing to the secular youth. People don't really need to fly to India to get enlightened. We did create the Bible and loads of literature around it.
My 0.02 shekels
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WTF???
You a fundamentalist now???
Gimme a break
Anyway, good thread.
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Move along people, nothing to see here
Everyone in the world is doing something without me |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 3, 2009 18:13
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On 2009-01-03 00:20, Pure Perception Records wrote:
All cultures, societies, and religions are based around 'personal excellence' and bettering ones self for the benefit of the whole community. There certainly isn't one path to 'personal excellence' as they all have the same goal. Kinda like there are many ways to the top of the pyramid yet they all reach the pinnacle....
actually the western renaissance brought about some of the most individualism in human history.
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Individualism is better for the society. Nash's proof that the best way to solve a problem is by people working to advance themselves within the community while striving to complete it's goals is brilliant - and can be applied to any complex system. The Caste system is detrimental to long term growth - for the exact reason that a man cannot strive to be a ruler if he was not "born for the job". It doesn't offer enough flexibility in solutions. It's very short-term, and doesn't work well with big numbers. As such - one of the goals of the community is diversity, in order to have people who will be right for every duty at every time. Individualism is a powerful tool, and does not necessarily go against society if that is one of it's creeds.
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I do think the better question is why people are turning away...
I think a lot of it has to do with people feeling that the eastern religions are not as condemning on behavior. As mainstream Judaism, Christianity and Catholicism are based around the Law (yet no religion permits excessiveness or any other craziness). But the fundamentalist make people in the western world scared of God. People have an impression of God as sitting on a cloud pissed off all day at what your doing. But if we as humans have the capability to be compassionate and forgiving how can we view the Ultimate Supreme as someone who inst compassionate. So this is damaging to the relationship between us as humans and the Ultimate Supreme.
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Most religious people do not view it that way. According to all monotheistic religions, God has many facets, and he is a benevolent God to his believers. The problem is more a media-centered one, religion's PR was terrible in the post-dark-ages. And AFAIK, the eight fold way is a set of rules - it is just that the only judge is the person himself.
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but..
If people are searching to the east for answers, who cares, at least they are searching! the thing that scares me the most is atheism. which has become very prominent in western society, and could come to really hurt us in the future. if you truly seek though you should give your own culture a try. not hearing from someone else but reading it on your own.
-Kameleon
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Agreed.
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Forza
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Posted : Jan 4, 2009 16:19
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Very interesting thread and discussion here 
Kaz, answering your original question, in my humble opinion I believe that what is right for an individual, might not be right for another one, regardless of his/her origin.
Some people feel more inclined to one particular kind of philosophy because of their personalities, and that's what makes them right for them.
Respect!
Peace, Love, Light and Harmony |
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