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Is the Eastern solution right for the Western person?
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Jan 5, 2009 15:38
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I'm happy that some people have the power to question their religious upbringing. It's a shame thou that many just fall victims to other scams. I think it's mostly because their motives for change of faith were wrong to begin with. They're not questioning shit, just keeping their eyes shut and leaping from one flock of sheep to another.
  "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Jan 5, 2009 15:43
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On 2009-01-03 00:20, Pure Perception Records
but..
If people are searching to the east for answers, who cares, at least they are searching! the thing that scares me the most is atheism. which has become very prominent in western society, and could come to really hurt us in the future. if you truly seek though you should give your own culture a try. not hearing from someone else but reading it on your own.
-Kameleon
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Hurt us how?
Here's a quote from Dawkins' The God Delusion. It's long, but READ IT.
"[A] horrifying study by the Israeli psychologist George Tamarin":
Tamarin presented to more than a thousand Israeli school children, aged between eight and fourteen, the account of the battle of Jericho in the book of Joshua:
Joshua said to the people, 'Shout; for the LORD has given you the city. And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction. . . But all silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are sacred to the LORD; they shall go into the treasury of the LORD.'. . . Then they utterly destroyed all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and asses, with the edge of the sword. . . And they burned the city with fire, and all within it; only the silver and gold, and the vessels of bronze and iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.
Tamarin then asked the children a simple moral question: 'Do you think Joshua and the Israelites acted rightly or not?' They had to choose between A (total approval), B (partial approval) and C (total disapproval). The results were polarized: 66 percent gave total approval and 26 percent total disapproval, with rather fewer (8 percent) in the middle with partial approval. Here are three typical answers from the total approval (A) group:
In my opinion Joshua and the Sons of Israel acted well, and here are the reasons: God promised them this land, and gave them permission to conquer. If they would not have acted in this manner or killed anyone, then there would be the danger that the Sons of Israel would have assimilated among the Goyim.
In my opinion Joshua was right when he did it, one reason being that God commanded him to exterminate the people so that the tribes of Israel will not be able to assimilate amongst them and learn their bad ways.
Joshua did good because the people who inhabited the land were of a different religion, and when Joshua killed them he wiped their religion from the earth.
The justification for the genocidal massacre by Joshua is religious in every case. Even those in category C, who gave total disapproval, did so, in some cases, for backhanded religious reasons. One girl, for example, disapproved of Joshua's conquering Jericho because, in order to do so, he had to enter it:
I think it is bad, since the Arabs are impure and if one enters an impure land one will also become impure and share their curse.
Two others who totally disapproved did so because Joshua destroyed everything, including animals and property, instead of keeping some as spoil for Israelites:
I think Joshua did not act well, as they could have spared the animals for themselves.
I think Joshua did not act well, as he could have left the property of Jericho; if he had not destroyed the property it would have belonged to the Israelites.
Once again the sage Maimonides, often cited for his scholarly wisdom, is in no doubt where he stands on this issue: 'It is a positive commandment to destroy the seven nations, as it is said: Thou shalt utterly destroy them. If one does not put to death any of them that falls into one's power, one transgresses a negative commandment, as it is said: Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.'
Unlike Maimonides, the children in Tamarin's experiment were young enough to be innocent. Presumably the savage views they expressed were those of their parents or the cultural group in which they were brought up. It is, I suppose, not unlikely that Palestinian children, brought up in the same war-torn country, would offer equivalent opinions in the opposite direction. These considerations fill me with despair. They seem to show the immense power of religion, and especially the religious upbringing of children, to divide people and foster historic enmities and hereditary vendettas. I cannot help remarking that two out Tamarin's three quotations from group A mentioned the evils of assimilation, while the third one stressed the importance of killing people in order to stamp out their religion.
Tamarin ran a fascinating control group in his experiment. A different group of 168 Israeli children were given the same text from the book of Joshua, but with Joshua's own name replaced by 'General Lin' and 'Israel' replaced by 'a Chinese kingdom 3,000 years ago'. Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7 per cent approved of General Lin's behavior, and 75 percent disapproved. In other words, when their loyalty to Judaism was removed from the calculation, the majority of the children agreed with the moral judgments that most modern humans would share. Joshua's action was a deed of barbaric genocide. But it all looks different from a religious point of view. And the difference starts early in life. It was religion that made the difference between children condemning genocide and condoning it.
Now that's fucking scary! "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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NextWorld
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 5, 2009 15:58
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We did create the Bible
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Uh, another thing to blame the jews for  |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Jan 5, 2009 17:54
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OK, before we stray- any atheism vs. religion posts- please start a new thread! Otherwise I'll delete.
Let's stay here with the original question.
Thanks.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Dogon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 5, 2009 22:42
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i think whether its Eastern or Western, the basis is oneness, peace, love, respect.
So IMO, leave the boxes alone.
We were born naked & grow up to become wicked. |
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nu-key
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Posted : Jan 5, 2009 23:10
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god is love !!!
It's THE DARK AGE ... remember |
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jabba
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Posted : Jan 6, 2009 13:06
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ignore my ignorance here for what was written on this beautiful blue wall BUT i sincerely believe ...............
Freedom to love your own self and to believe in your heart than the head is................. what is being religious, for which there is no INDIA , CHINA , ISRAEL or ROME and this is the road to personal Nirvana why bother for anyone else when youve got no time to look into your ownself 
when you know yourself and find love for yourself then the religions dont matter and you find love everywhere and as the wise people says love is god and god is love , what is religion just a word then
peace
To focus sometimes you need to spin hard on your soul's axis..... just don't ask how and what it means ;) |
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 7, 2009 02:41
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Great topic. I started reading from the first page and was going to respond but I see Shahar has said everything I was going to say
I've actually always wondered why Asians took to Western religion in droves.
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mk47
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Posted : Jan 7, 2009 11:27
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haven't read the whole thread but why is there a debate anyway ? .. whatever works for you ..works ..east west north south ..whatever , and its not about Israelis only , even in India , lots of people are disenchanted and put of by religion , coz it is unfortunately a business for many , everyone wants to make a buck & too many gross misinterpretations .... i think all humans have to figure out the truth for themselves , its an internal thing , not external .. but if a book or a philosophy gets u there , all good , don't matter who wrote it / thought it .. this shit is free for all humanity , how can anyone lay claim to the truth as being his own and not for others , ok enough blabla .. bye
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gutter
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Posted : Jan 7, 2009 14:58
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nice topic indeed
what about choosing your values? or have no other way?
i mean you born in a country and as a child youre baptized, this is not your choice since you are not capable to choose and decide at that age
then in society while you grow up
you see people follow this religion (your country's "main" religion anyway)
and again in school teachers focus on that religion again more than any other, in order maybe to motivate you to accept it with a fake way.. i mean they dont teach you all religions the same, you dont leave school and suddenly ask you now to choose what religion you want to follow and furthermore if you want to follow them
and if you look inside them all, youll see that every religion philosophy is based on co-existence and cooperate is based in love and understanding your fellowman, your family, based on NO KILLING - NO TAKING another man's life, no steal, be honest and truth
i know these are basic principles of the ideal world, i know the above stand among those principles in every religion
but finally its for the ideal again and not the real one
i know that if you born poor or in a third world country or anyway you dont have access to knowledge and information you have no critique ability
you believe what others tell you, promise you and probably you do it blindly
and again i cannot blame that people that become fanatic and end up to the point to kill one or thousands for that reason even if it is against the basic principles of his religion, cause no one told him about them or rephrase them to abuse illiterate masses that are starving and this is going for thousands of years
wise man would never teach you that, never
back to the matter about western people and eastern religions ill have to agree with shahar about finding a way out of the ordinary or the constrainedly religion and not many alternatives that was given to you, drive you to search for something different, but indeed the basis of basic principles is almost identical in every religion
its a trend too among westerners, thats another fact, cause they find hindus or babas or monks, i dont know, and watching them meditate all day and talking about peace or the really deep things inside ourselfs are fascinated by their way and follow their religion, instead of watching a christian priest say his teaching & chant every sunday
as i have understand these religions are made for that side of the world and others for this one, though the eastern cultures are more meditating and deeper and people are much more respect them, but is that because they are poorer again??
do you think the bloody bastards that rule this world believe in god?? fuck no, cause they know that there isnt any and its way too beautiful to have that invisible force that made everything for the masses to fear
after all youll be judged by god at the end, isnt that the way?
the 10 commands are indeed values that stand for a better world but i really believe that they didnt fall from the sky
some wise man or men, gathered the values, the values that you and me feel(except you are a serial killer) and tried to appear them as god command, cause back on these days people were fearing way too much that invisible force..
anyway its a huge matter i maybe expressed my feelings wrong or not
but what the f&&k are we search for really can you tell me ??
cause if it is fucking peace then we must have done something terribly wrong in our lifes no matter religions or plain thoughts and values
with numbers and mathematics this world, Earth, must be 80% misery and 20% all we discussing that matters and now people are killed and again tomorrow and starving to death.
i cannot see any religion stop this through history and years
i dont believe in god, ill never will, or if im lucky to have children someday ill never baptize them, never do that mistake, its a vicious circle of lies and to gather people under a common sign
ill make another question if someone cares to answer
when will we stop killing our brother & sister? why do we kill children ??
does anyone come up with an excuse for that, that indeed there is a reason to do that?
i love life.
death cannot be my decision.
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Jan 7, 2009 15:52
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Gutter, I think you'd like the following:
To give pleasure to a single heart by a single act is better than a thousand heads bowing in prayer.
-Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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gutter
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Posted : Jan 7, 2009 16:20
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im sorry , youre write, i get emotionally excited and angry sometimes
Mahatma was a genius philosopher and humanist that made real this phrase in thousands of single hearts
maybe the biggest humanist the world ever seen, that not only spoke but did his word actions
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not to mention his wife that doesnt differ much from our pig-faced-turd-machine prime minister...the coin is double faced.
anyway , sorry for the mess again
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NIKTHEQUICK
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Posted : Jan 7, 2009 18:06
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my experience as a christian born with a great interest in eastern practices:
-we travel a lot more - i.e. more exposed to other cultures
-christian religion is very fixed, deep rooted in our culture (italian) as we are the ones who spread it to the west. It leaves no space for other ways of expressing spirituality,....unlike other religions (especially eastern) who leave more space....
- furthermore, the low spirituality due to a fixed approached (church in italy is part of society influencing politics etc) is being reduced further by the younger generations....very big change in the last 20 years with the largest share of society loosing contact with the church and consequently with god....
- it is viewed as a force in society more as a political social characteristic rather than a way to expand your mind/soul/consciouness
- cultures are more mixed and therefore it is easier to loose the "original" beliefs
nevertheless i still remain a christian.....appreciate the little aspects left in my religion....but always tend to identify myself with a more open culture such as induism....which accepts christians in temple etc
also it is aimed at nurturing the spirit...something that is missing greatly in the christian world today...
BUT IT IS VERY GOOD PEOPLE LOOKING IN OTHER DIRECTIONS.....THE POINT IS CULTIVATING YOUR SOUL....DONT LEAVE IT ONLY TO THE MATERIAL WORLD!
bholenath jesus..heheh
Ps great topic!! finally some good discussions on "hot" issues! |
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Kaz
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Posted : Jan 7, 2009 21:30
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On 2009-01-07 14:58, gutter wrote:
i know that if you born poor or in a third world country or anyway you dont have access to knowledge and information you have no critique ability
you believe what others tell you, promise you and probably you do it blindly
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That is sheer arrogance. Sure, poverty can be a breeding ground for hopelessness, something that can lead to extremes. But "you believe what others tell you, promise you and probably you do it blindly" is a load of BS. The fact that someone doesn't know to read doesn't mean he doesn't know to think. Are you saying shamans in the middle of nowhere have no spiritual backbone? Or that this is not a valid belief? Or that a baba that lived his entire life in poverty is an ignorant fool that will believe anything?
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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gutter
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Posted : Jan 8, 2009 11:29
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no Kaz i never spoke about shamans or judged the meditating babas.This was aiming to places like middle east or afrika where children raised with guns and learn how to kill from the age of 7.
I respect shamans a lot my friend, even Maria Sabina adopted christianity, maybe it was a "necessary bad" out of the spanish conquer at mexico, still she raised with it among with the spiritual revivalism and cured many people and souls in her life and i really believe in her and her "miracles" much more than jesus miracles
I judged the fanatic point of view and the use of religion for that purposes
Babas and shaman are wise Quote:
| wise man would never teach you that, never |
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and this sentence was aiming to them too cause they have knowledge but they know how to use it wisely and probably have done no bad to man and respect life
im not arrogant my friend, just got a little anger, maybe im not very good & capable at political conversations and get excited and writing things with not many details or explanations that can be misunterstood at times, u know
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