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Does the subbass have to play in tune?
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Conny
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Aug 29, 2014 09:49:32
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Ive added som subbas to my higher bass and i wonder if the subbass should have the same pitch as the other bass? |
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aje
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Aug 29, 2014 11:53
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Aug 29, 2014 14:37
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I usually make 3 basslines. Sub bass @ 40-50hz, Low Bass @ 100hz, Mid bass @ 200hz area. The lower the bass note, the more consistent it should be. My sub I will keep on the root, the low bass having minimal changes and the mid bass brings in the detail. The sub bass connects to the kicks thump @ 50hz, so it should create one movement. Low bass is the drive and the mid bass would hold the variety.
The 3 basslines should still present itself as one, so if you add variety to the notes – keep in mind that they should compliment and flow together.
With sub tones it’s difficult to identify pitch so keep everything neatly on the scale’s root, like aje said
 " We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Aug 29, 2014 18:47
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I know its a subjective question but do u have any rule reagrding the levels between the sub and the mid
Tudo que é melhor e mais superior em mim saúda tudo que é melhor e mais alto em si |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Aug 29, 2014 23:21
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It should play in tune. If it's due to sound as if it's just one sound, then it should.
But the more you get to it, the more problems you're due to face. First and foremost, it's going to task your cpu a lot more with all the extra processing. So that's a first consideration to have.
We all know that keeping it simple down there is good for getting that steady bass frequencies to move the audiences. This means a simple, not wacky , waveform. Hence the usual preference for sine waves or triangle waves for such duties. But this simple waves don't really fill up the spectrum, unless they're pitch modulated - like a standard 808 kick. A sine wave just fills the root frequency of the note and that's it. So you'd be better of just reserving the needed space (one octave perhaps) for it for this layer. Say 40-50Hz, for example.
Next in line would be phase alignment. You expect it to sound as one, so you should keep an eye for when extra processing actually changes the phase in ways that make it sound inconsistent or render it down and adjust the phase until it blends well together. In which case, if this was me, I'd rather go through the task of sampling the whole thing so I could just focus on making music afterwards without the engineering part. No problem doing that, but it can drive the focus away.
All in all, though, unless there's a real good reason for it, I think a simple sawtooth oscillator can provide good enough Bass for most psytrance tracks.
Cheers |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Aug 30, 2014 13:56
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atm i'm without monitors, so im producing with speakers, usualy use sylenth for my bass, checking some reference track, what i tend to see is that the reference track seems to have what i would call less power then what im doing, but are much more dirty in a good way, dunno if im explaining it right, the bass is not very clean, must be the way its eq'd, but i cant get my head around it, the ear has a deceiving way of working, the f**ker 
Tudo que é melhor e mais superior em mim saúda tudo que é melhor e mais alto em si |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Aug 30, 2014 15:30
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^you'll be able to judge that much better when you finally put the money on some monitors. otherwise, it's a much harder task to tame for sure...
but the characteristics you're talking about has probably got to do with either the filter movement, so check those filter env settings first; the EQ, yes, but you don't actually need to do much on that department - keep it simple but be very precise on the decisions you make; the other thing that could do the trick is some kind of saturation/distortion (myself, I'd keep the very lows without it, as I prefer very simple waveforms down there) creating some harmonics that can help build up its character in a good way.
All in all, the devil is in the little details. Even midi note length is a parameter, velocity is another, the amount that velocity impacts some modulation is another, so forth and so on. So many things to get right in the most simple of patches - 'cause the plucky sawtooth bass sound is actually quite a simple patch to make on itself. But when you start doing it millions of times, then your understanding of it grows deeper and deeper and your choice of parameters while tweaking starts to be more sensitive to little changes, perhaps.
With some EQ+dynamics and a good patch to begin with, you should be 80% there already. How you mix it in with the rest is probably where the other 20% lies. Plus, you get plenty more layers of processing in a finished/mastered song that you have to account for when referencing.  |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Aug 30, 2014 17:09
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What u think, little processing, some eq and comp, the kick still sounds to dunno boxie.Trying to work the filter's magic only
https://soundcloud.com/nuno-muacho/test
Tudo que é melhor e mais superior em mim saúda tudo que é melhor e mais alto em si |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Aug 30, 2014 18:07
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Well, it always takes lowering some frequencies on the Kick for allowing the bass to come through clean. Look for those nasty boxy sounding frequencies somewhere round 350-500Hz region (this are just guide lines, btw). But yeah, you still need to make those two fit together. Starts with choosing the right Kick to!
Nothing wrong with a multi-band compressor for the Bass to. Makes it easy to level up and down complete bands in a more linear fashion, sort like using layers, sort like the good old Quadrafuzz (no wonder it's used a lot) did. But it's easier to fail the more options you have, in a way. If we're talking compression, for example, some people like the note by note thing - quite possibly sampling the notes afterwards. Some like a more extreme compression, really lowering the dynamics. Some like limiting even! It depends in how it sounds. But steady means: not so much variation in volume! Right? But not so few as to level out the dynamics completely and create nasty effects from hitting the dynamics processors to hard (or being able to tell the difference between to hard on higher notes and not so much on lower ones, also very unpleasant). So it's all about balance! If you set your velocity>volume thing, then place a limiter in there that levels out all the dynamics, there's no use for your velocity thing anymore, besides triggering the limiter harder or softer.
But yeah, focusing on the source is the thing! But it won't sound charming without some processing! Just focusing on the sources and taking of lows and highs carefully on both sounds, a bit of the kick's mids should be 80% of the thing. And I'm being honest here. At least for me. |
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 1, 2014 11:37
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Quote:
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On 2014-08-30 17:09, Nomad Moon wrote:
What u think, little processing, some eq and comp, the kick still sounds to dunno boxie.Trying to work the filter's magic only
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EQ and Comp plays a vital role in the processing, but it does not turn a k&b into a great sound. EQ is used to shape the sound, removing boxiness or giving it a softer sound on the ears- and compression is used to reduce wide dynamics or to make the sound hit a little bit harder, however you should play with the attack and the threshold on it to ensure that the comp does not suck out the volume too much after the attack.
Like FH said, monitors are a very important aspect to a good produced track. It’s difficult to understand if you haven’t worked with monitors before. I also used desktop speakers + sub in the beginning, after that got some Fostex monitors and out of curiosity compared the two one day. With the monitors the sound was more clear and the frequencies vivid. Switched over to the desktops and I was baffled by how confusing the frequencies sounded. It was more difficult to pin point which frequencies needed to be cut with eq, it was honestly a ball of confusion playing with my ears.
To Wow up the sound it will usually come down to added distortion, chorus effects, etc. These processing should be subtle. Your RAW sound is like your home, so don’t drift off too far. Use wet/dry knob and listen carefully for what you are adding, turn it to 100% dry and start making it wet until you hear a subtle yet improved difference. Just like flowers, too much water and it will drown.
Many commercial artists have different techniques- for me layering is the king, but you should know what layering means before you do it. It’s not just throwing layers of sounds on top of the other- this will cause a mess with too many frequencies clashing. EQ is needed to make the layers fit together, each dominating within the others weakness.
Some guys take 5 kick-drums, eq out big parts and play them as one- giving you a newly created kick (well recycled kick). The benefit here would be, you have a more interesting kick and also gives more control on the loudness of the frequency bands without using eq. Be careful not to have too much sub in all the kick layers, otherwise the balance will be off once again.
Then processing each layer with different distortion settings, etc, would Up you another level in creativity, adding more interest and also, a more unique sound.
" We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 1, 2014 16:15
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So here's a great video (I think) in Noisia's studio, mainly about drum processing and layering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezh2BM2dh5s
this should give good fuel for thought
As far as that kind of stuff goes, I think of that as pre-work: meaning that you can be very precise and perfectionist about it, but then you have to render the pieces down and start using it without being to precious about it! Plus, it will free up cpu cycles for what's next.
Believe it's the second time I post this video here, but it's a good one! Cheers |
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Albertos
Albertos
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Posted : Sep 1, 2014 18:48
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Quote:
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On 2014-08-29 09:49:32, Conny wrote:
Ive added som subbas to my higher bass and i wonder if the subbass should have the same pitch as the other bass?
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Maybe little bit higher or lower detuned, also you can play it on the same tune.If lower bass is detuned croud will feel it on big systems. If lower and higher basses detuned in the right way it can bring such as wide floating analogue bass line
www.soundcloud.com/albertos_music
http://www.beatport.com/release/on-the-waves/814568 |
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Upavas
Upavas
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Posted : Sep 4, 2014 12:18
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Some of the comments in here boggle my mind... 3 basslines? For what? Take your favorite synth and make one decent bassline, how: simple, first choose the right fundamental frequency, whichever one sounds fat, then work on your amplitude envelope, the attack as short as possible and the sustain all the way up, don't worry about decay, the release as short as possible but make sure the fundamental note still comes through possible. You also need to adjust the filter cutoff and filter envelope, it's settings are similar to the amplitude envelope. The cutoff is important, fiddle with it and the filter envelope saturation until you have it right. Once you have ideal settings you look at the eq, you have to apply a high pass filter, -12dB per Octave or 2 pole works best for me, next find resonating frequencies by dialing with a notch filter through the frequency spectrum and gently filter them out. The better your envelopes and cutoff settings, the less eq needed. Last apply compression with a slow attack and a relatively fast release and voila, Phatt and nice... Simple!
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Sep 5, 2014 10:39
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Quote:
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On 2014-09-04 12:18, Upavas wrote:
Some of the comments in here boggle my mind... 3 basslines? For what? Take your favorite synth and make one decent bassline, how: simple, first choose the right fundamental frequency, whichever one sounds fat, then work on your amplitude envelope, the attack as short as possible and the sustain all the way up, don't worry about decay, the release as short as possible but make sure the fundamental note still comes through possible. You also need to adjust the filter cutoff and filter envelope, it's settings are similar to the amplitude envelope. The cutoff is important, fiddle with it and the filter envelope saturation until you have it right. Once you have ideal settings you look at the eq, you have to apply a high pass filter, -12dB per Octave or 2 pole works best for me, next find resonating frequencies by dialing with a notch filter through the frequency spectrum and gently filter them out. The better your envelopes and cutoff settings, the less eq needed. Last apply compression with a slow attack and a relatively fast release and voila, Phatt and nice... Simple!
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Yes simple is better but can also become boring in today's world. We already heard the single sawtooth like a thousand times before. Not talking about 3 full on 16th note basslines making a mess together.
One full bassline + sub - the other adds extra movement with bits here and there.
" We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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TimeTraveller
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Posted : Sep 5, 2014 11:12
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plus one mighty droping kick.