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copyrights and webradio

Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  107
Posts :  966
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 16:03
I'm digging in into the webradio business for http://www.psygarden.be , got in touch with our local copyright organisation ( http://www.sabam.be ) for the guidelines and costs and got this as feedback:

To broadcast a stream, with max 50.000 Pageviews a year, 24/7 would cost me a minimum of 1300 euro's just for the copyrights. This does not depend on what i play, just a fixed amount calculated on commercial profits (=none because i won't broadcast any advertisements of any kind) and pageviews.

Now i asked myself, where does this money go?

Sabam wants me to send them a playlist once every semester with the author/tracknames of that day. so that's one playlist for every so many months... while for instance the israely company (acum) has radio systems submit their entire playlists.

When i asked for verification of tracks by a number of artists that did not register with any alike organisation they at first hand told me that they couldn't even check if it was indeed in their database, i'm now awaiting confirmation that they can't even check who's a member and who's not.

I don't know how labels/artists collect money from Sabam, but i seriously doubt any fee's ever get to artists... while quite a bit is being payed... I'm not a lawyer, nor a legal expert.. but i refuse to pay fees on stuff they don't own (i would of course need written permission by all respective artists to play their music online). Any labels/artists want to comment on this?
          www.psytracks.com :: Brand new website for sharing your psytracks with the world. Get a free 250Mb Artist profile, Blog and events calender!
www.psygarden.be :: Upload your psychedelic art and partypictures to our gallery!
Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  107
Posts :  966
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 17:44
so everybody has big opinions about illegal/legal mp3's, but when it comes to where the money goes when you do pay, nobody knows? On this forum I see one artist after another complaining about copies of their tracks online... but it seems to be that if i follow the legal system they will receive roughly the same amount: about 0.00$.

So i pay Sabam 300 to 700$ for every party I organise, artists pay amounts circa 300$ a year anually for their memberships, a web radio costs a minimum of 1300$ anually and artists get nothing? This is beyond my comprehension... please help

labels, artists where are you?           www.psytracks.com :: Brand new website for sharing your psytracks with the world. Get a free 250Mb Artist profile, Blog and events calender!
www.psygarden.be :: Upload your psychedelic art and partypictures to our gallery!
Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  107
Posts :  966
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 18:57
as for the artists check if they are registered somwhere i got these results for 3 artists i had them check for me:

salakavala : unregistered
chi-a.d.: only one of both registered (dave young, also multiple matches so unclear)
fatali: registered at acum (israel) - also unclear though, incorrect records in their database.

So in the end, if you do pay everything, it still won't get where you want it to be. and this time the reason is with the artists, labels, and copyright organisations.

I would test more artists for registration but the person with sabam seems to have run out of patience, i have requested a meeting one of the following weeks for discussing out broadcast permits.           www.psytracks.com :: Brand new website for sharing your psytracks with the world. Get a free 250Mb Artist profile, Blog and events calender!
www.psygarden.be :: Upload your psychedelic art and partypictures to our gallery!
Tranceform
Tranceform

Started Topics :  8
Posts :  78
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 19:34
Quote:

On 2004-01-12 17:44, rik wrote:
so everybody has big opinions about illegal/legal mp3's, but when it comes to where the money goes when you do pay, nobody knows? On this forum I see one artist after another complaining about copies of their tracks online... but it seems to be that if i follow the legal system they will receive roughly the same amount: about 0.00$.



False analogy. I don't recall any artist complaining about their tracks being broadcasted illegally (without the artist getting anything for it, that is) and as far as mechanical royalties are concerned they actually _do_ end up at artists bank account (ask any of Tranceform's artists who are a member of copyright society) although it takes several months (I think that the copyright societies pay two times a year).

Quote:
So i pay Sabam 300 to 700$ for every party I organise, artists pay amounts circa 300$ a year anually for their memberships, a web radio costs a minimum of 1300$ anually and artists get nothing? This is beyond my comprehension... please help



Do artists really pay membership fees of $300 a year?? The Finnish copyright society has a fixed fee of a bit less than 100 euros, and it's a one-time fee (no annual charges).


Quote:
labels, artists where are you?



I never do publishing deals with the artists who release on Tranceform so I don't get any share of the royalties for airplay, but I do still believe that the labels and artists get their money for airplay since otherwise there'd be a lot of unhappy bigger labels and known artists wanting their money.



Cheers,

Kalle / Tranceform           ____________
http://www.facebook.com/tranceformrecords
Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  107
Posts :  966
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 19:43
Quote:

On 2004-01-12 19:34, Tranceform wrote:

False analogy. I don't recall any artist complaining about their tracks being broadcasted illegally (without the artist getting anything for it, that is) and as far as mechanical royalties are concerned they actually _do_ end up at artists bank account (ask any of Tranceform's artists who are a member of copyright society) although it takes several months (I think that the copyright societies pay two times a year).



The 300$ is a number i got from star jelly records after informing there.
As for the money ending up with the artists, how can this be possible if they only ask me to submit a playlist of one day out of every semester? I'm still inquering of it's possible to sumbit full playlists, but haven't had any replies so far.           www.psytracks.com :: Brand new website for sharing your psytracks with the world. Get a free 250Mb Artist profile, Blog and events calender!
www.psygarden.be :: Upload your psychedelic art and partypictures to our gallery!
Tranceform
Tranceform

Started Topics :  8
Posts :  78
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 19:56
Quote:

On 2004-01-12 19:43, rik wrote:

The 300$ is a number i got from star jelly records after informing there.



I consider it being a false fact (misunderstanding maybe) until some artist can confirm paying $300 a years for membership of a copyright society. Any of the artists on this forum willing to share some first-hand information?

Quote:
As for the money ending up with the artists, how can this be possible if they only ask me to submit a playlist of one day out of every semester? I'm still inquering of it's possible to sumbit full playlists, but haven't had any replies so far.



Sounds strange, please do share the information you get from them when they reply.

Anyway, money for radioplay has nothing to do with record sales and the latter has been the main concern of artists and labels.


All the best,

Kalle / Tranceform           ____________
http://www.facebook.com/tranceformrecords
Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  107
Posts :  966
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 20:17
Original reply by Sabam:
"Beste,

Ik heb nergens geschreven dat wij geen manier hebben om dit na te trekken. Integendeel, de internationale werken- en ledendatabase van de auteursverenigingen is wellicht de meest uitgebreide muziekdatabase ter wereld (tientallen miljoenen auteurs/componisten en uitgevers + enkele honderden miljoenen titels van werken).

Dé zwakke schakel in gans het verhaal is de soms bedroevende kwaliteit van playlists die we binnenkrijgen en op basis waarvan we een verdeling van de geïnde rechten moeten doen. Rechten die worden geïnd bij radiostations die het niet zo nauw nemen met de playlists, belanden spijtig genoeg in een gezamelijke verdeelpot. De rechthebbende van zo'n werk heeft hier geen belang bij en ook SABAM zelf tracht dit met alle middelen te vermijden, maar het is ons uitdrukkelijk verboden om zo'n rechten gedurende langere tijd te blokkeren. Zo'n radiostations ondervinden daar achteraf ook wel hinder van omdat we ze via schadeclaims of hogere tarieven tot meer medewerking proberen te bewegen.
"


Translation:
"Dear ...

I never wrote that we have no way to verify to check if artists's work is registered in our database. On the contrary, our international database of releases/artists-associations is most likely the biggest in the world.

The weak link here is the low quality of the playlists we get submitted and the basis we use to distribute the collected rights. rights that are collected with radio stations that do not give "perfect" playlists are collected in a fund. The author of a copyright has no interest in this and also sabam saves no effort to avoid this. However law has explicitly forbidded us to save this money for any reasons. Radiostations that do not submit correct playlists will be charged extra costs/fines to improve cooperation"

so... i conclude that it's not their fault but every other (130 associated) copyright organisation in the world, that has to send sabam a full list of every release they ever registered... in a good and understandable format

if you send in lineups including the above mentioned artists, only fatali is likely to ever see anything near a cent for the 1300$ i pay them. I inquired with multiple labels (who i won't mention but have encouraged to reply here) and they confirmed me that they don't even register their releases/artists/... because they don't believe in this system themselveS...

I just checked the registration fee for an artist in belgium, and you're right, it's not 300 euro's but 124 € annually with an additional 25 € for taxes

          www.psytracks.com :: Brand new website for sharing your psytracks with the world. Get a free 250Mb Artist profile, Blog and events calender!
www.psygarden.be :: Upload your psychedelic art and partypictures to our gallery!
yossi
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  72
Posts :  1641
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 21:30
just to clear up a thingy...
the registration fee to ACUM is 150nis, wich is around 33$.
and its not annualy.

rik baba, please please please dont quote me when im stoned
          if you want to be rich, u`ve got to be a bitch!
nobody_3
Inactive User

Started Topics :  13
Posts :  1177
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 22:03
It's free to registrate with KODA in Denmark and rik.... every penny end up in the artists hands.... that is IF they have registrated with a similar national organisation

Sabam have huge databases with national and international artist information. What happens is that when a track is being broadcastesd and registrated as broadcasted in Belgium then that will be reported to the respective artists contry where the national organisation make sure to collect the royalty for the broadcast and pay the sum to the artist... again that's only if the artist have registrated with the organisation!

So to sum it up....

You just provide Sabam with the playlists of every broadcast and the money WILL end up in the right hands

Sabam is by law comitted to accept all your playlists IF you sign up with them and they are comitted by international law to notify and pay out broadcast royalty to all the broadcasted artists national organisations.

To say that you dont have to pay for each broadcasted piece of music is 100% against European or for that matter international agreements between the different national organisations. The person that told you that in Sabam do not do not know the laws correctly. I know all of this because I have released quite a lot of music in Belgium via Nova Zembla and have dealt with both Sabam and many other international organisations for a number of years now.

So in the end they are very wrong to only ask for one playlist per "whatever month". They are bound legally to recieve tracklists and collect money from each single track played on your internet radio station every single day 24/7. No matter if you broadcast commercials or not... Commercials have nothing to do with anything here... That person you spoke to sound like someone that know nothing at all

So no matter what they told you at Sabam they are part of a international agreement that bind them to follow a set of rules when it come to collect information about broadcasting and paying out royalties.

P.S. Most organisations like Sabam use a international database network for checking releases. So no one have to send them artist lists It's all put into this amazing huge international database when the artists or his/her publishing agency registrate a track.
nobody_3
Inactive User

Started Topics :  13
Posts :  1177
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 22:15
Quote:

On 2004-01-12 20:17, rik wrote:

I inquired with multiple labels (who i won't mention but have encouraged to reply here) and they confirmed me that they don't even register their releases/artists/... because they don't believe in this system themselveS...






mate mate mate

The only ones that can registrate releases with such organisations as Sabam are the artists themselves or their publishing agencies... NOT their labels!

Man who are you talking to out there? Seem these people get many facts wrong!
yossi
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  72
Posts :  1641
Posted : Jan 12, 2004 22:18
and when it comes to copyright registration, a label is not a good place to ask nowdays... but the artist.
label has absolutely no interest, it just makes the whole release thing to more expensive.

edit: and yeah... ONLY artists, composers, authors... etc etc can register.
          if you want to be rich, u`ve got to be a bitch!
Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  107
Posts :  966
Posted : Jan 13, 2004 10:58
Quote:

On 2004-01-12 22:03, Elysium Project wrote:
It's free to registrate with KODA in Denmark and rik.... every penny end up in the artists hands.... that is IF they have registrated with a similar national organisation



From what i've read so far this is far from the same situation as in belgium...

Quote:

You just provide Sabam with the playlists of every broadcast and the money WILL end up in the right hands

Sabam is by law comitted to accept all your playlists IF you sign up with them and they are comitted by international law to notify and pay out broadcast royalty to all the broadcasted artists national organisations.



Original text by sabam:
"Een eerste factuur voor de periode van februari t.e.m. juni (eerste semester 04) zal u dan in de loop van juni ontvangen.
Playlists kunnen worden ingestuurd vanaf maart (ik stel voor dat we dit eveneens beperken tot 1 dag programmatie per maand).
We verzoeken u de playlist te versturen in excelformaat, met vermelding van de dag van uitzendingen, titels, auteurs, componisten en/of uitvoerders van de gebruikte werken (indien mogelijk mag u eveneens het platenlabel toevoegen, maar dit is niet verplicht)."

Translation:
"You can expect the first bill for the periode of Feb untill june (1st semester 04) during june, You can submit playlists starting in march (but i suggest we also limit this to 1 programmation day a month). We urge you send us these lists in an excel format with note of date and time, track names, authors, composers and or those who play the piece, label is of no importance."


Quote:
To say that you dont have to pay for each broadcasted piece of music is 100% against European or for that matter international agreements between the different national organisations. The person that told you that in Sabam do not do not know the laws correctly. I know all of this because I have released quite a lot of music in Belgium via Nova Zembla and have dealt with both Sabam and many other international organisations for a number of years now.



This would only be the case if the artist is not registered with an organisation alike sabam, and if i have his written permission to play his tracks, but is possible & legal.

Quote:
So in the end they are very wrong to only ask for one playlist per "whatever month". They are bound legally to recieve tracklists and collect money from each single track played on your internet radio station every single day 24/7. No matter if you broadcast commercials or not... Commercials have nothing to do with anything here... That person you spoke to sound like someone that know nothing at all



the main contact of sabam belgium, and he also added this bit of text:

"U heeft in het tarief dat ik u eerder reeds bezorgde kunnen lezen dat het tarief 6% bedraagt van de met de webradio gerealiseerde reclame-inkomsten, gebonden aan een minimum van 1.278,62 Euro per jaar. Dit betekent dus dat indien er geen reclame- of sponsorinkomsten zijn (of deze zeer laag zijn) het minimumbedrag sowieso verschuldigd blijft."

Translation:
"In the price i made you earlier you'll see that there is a 6% charge on realised commercial profits, and a minimum charge of 1278.62 euro a year. This means that if there is no commercial or sponsoring profits (or these remain low) you still ow us this minumum amount."

          www.psytracks.com :: Brand new website for sharing your psytracks with the world. Get a free 250Mb Artist profile, Blog and events calender!
www.psygarden.be :: Upload your psychedelic art and partypictures to our gallery!
Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics :  107
Posts :  966
Posted : Jan 13, 2004 11:55
Could some of you people check with your local copyright organisations what the going rate for webradio's is in your country?           www.psytracks.com :: Brand new website for sharing your psytracks with the world. Get a free 250Mb Artist profile, Blog and events calender!
www.psygarden.be :: Upload your psychedelic art and partypictures to our gallery!
Bes
Tribalistic Society

Started Topics :  64
Posts :  709
Posted : Jan 13, 2004 13:24
Hi there!

As far as i can figure out you pay a minimium of 6.000 dkr.(about 800 Euro) per month for internet radio here in denmark. This amount is only a minimum cause if you make any money on the site you'll have to pay more.

To Elysium:

"It's free to registrate with KODA in Denmark"

I'm about to registre at KODA and as far as i can see it costs 500 dkr(one time fee). How did you get away with not paying?

Brian           Man is the Cruelest Animal!!!!!

http://www.myspace.com/tribalisticsociety
http://soundcloud.com/tribalisticsociety
http://www.myspace.com/120bpms
nobody_3
Inactive User

Started Topics :  13
Posts :  1177
Posted : Jan 13, 2004 13:37
LOL Bes I registrated years back... It was free at that time... I did not know it cost money now.

To rik... Again read what I wrote.. Sabam is wrong.

You as a broadcaster are bound by law (also in Belgium) to inform about every single track you play and to pay for it ! If Sabam think you only have to pay a fixed price every 3rd month they are very wrong! I will contact KODA in Denmark and let them know what Sabam write to you. I am sure KODA will react to Sabam's wrong information to you.

But you can of course choose to believe Sabam in their wrong info. Just know that international copyright law bind you to pay for each track you play! No matter if you use commercials or not!
Trance Forum » » Forum  Trance - copyrights and webradio

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