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Best way of midi syncing sequencers? Midiclock seems not accurate enough...
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Dr.Drane
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Posted : May 29, 2008 12:13
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On 2008-05-28 22:51, Upavas wrote:
Forgot to mention... Midi uses Timecode, SPDif uses wordclock!
Also in film we used to have to sync a hell of a lot when we were using DA98's . Pro Tools is really excellent for that. aT TIMES THE da98 WAS THE MASTER AND pRO tOOLS FOLLOWED IT'S COMMANDS NICELY. oN ANOTHER OCCASION i HAD TO STRIPE TIMECODE ONTO AN EMPTY TAPE, IN WHICH pRO tOOLS WAS THE MASTER...I just wish they had the midi flexibility of e.g. FL8 !
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Thanks a lot for the info, this again clears things up some more for me.
What I would like to accomplish is syncing a group op Cubase users to a group of Ableton users. And I'm not specifically interested in transferring audio (though that would probably become step 2 in my "plan"), for the moment I'd be happy to see them all synced at the same tempo, and so that someone should be able to start/stop all the sequencers at once.
Between the ableton users I can use a simple midi cable to transfer the midi clock. So that's no problem. But when I want to accomplish this between 2 cubase systems or 2 cubase systems and and Ableton system, I'm having the problem that Ableton can only send midi clock and receive midi clock and MTC. And Cubase can't receive midi clock.
So I can let one Cubase system be the master of the ableton group. (via midi clock or mtc)
But I can't sync multiple Cubase systems via midi clock.
And since midi clock appears to be bpm based and MTC time based I don't think it's a good idea to use them both in one sync group.
Thanks again for the replies! Greets! |
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Upavas
Upavas
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Posted : May 29, 2008 12:50
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Yeah, I see your point. One of the advantages of Pro Tools is that it is hardware based, so syncing becomes a lot easier. I have Midi and Spdif as well as wordclock on my m-box.
Honestly, with a sync i/o you can switch between modes, be it timecode or wordclock without a problem. I have done it many times... and in movies you deal with an accuracy of 0.01 of a frame at times, especially when it comes to speech, so you have absolutely no tolerance for latency...
It really depends on your audio hardware. I guess you are planning to use more than 1 soundcard? If you do, SPDif is probably your easiest way, and you won't need a sync i/o.
Midi clock causes clockdrift, especially with more than 2 devices. You can adjust the latency of the first chained device, with the second one it becomes trickier. Because of that Midi clock gets most often used in combination with wordclock. Since SPDif is wordclock, I see no problem!
 Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Dr.Drane
Started Topics :
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22
Posted : May 29, 2008 15:48
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Thanks again a whole lot for the fast reply!!
I think I'm becoming a sequencer sync pro here. 
Some last thoughts and questions that I still have:
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On 2008-05-29 12:50, Upavas wrote:
Yeah, I see your point. One of the advantages of Pro Tools is that it is hardware based, so syncing becomes a lot easier. I have Midi and Spdif as well as wordclock on my m-box.
Honestly, with a sync i/o you can switch between modes, be it timecode or wordclock without a problem. I have done it many times... and in movies you deal with an accuracy of 0.01 of a frame at times, especially when it comes to speech, so you have absolutely no tolerance for latency...
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Damn, too bad Ableton isn't able to work via S/PDIF I guess. Or at least I think it's not. You only find "midi clock" and "MTC over midi" in the settings:
http://www.appletree.be/mm/midisettings.jpg
No sign, of S/PDIF. (I also asked this on the ableton forum, and it's probably not possible)
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It really depends on your audio hardware. I guess you are planning to use more than 1 soundcard? If you do, SPDif is probably your easiest way, and you won't need a sync i/o.
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Yes. It's me and a bunch of other people who would like to have some laptop jams...most of them will have decent audio interfaces and the ones who don't...well, they will have to buy one if necessary.
If I'm not mistaken, MTC is the (only?) protocol transmittable over both midi and digital cable. So I guess that's the protocol I could use best.
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Midi clock causes clockdrift, especially with more than 2 devices. You can adjust the latency of the first chained device, with the second one it becomes trickier.
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Hmmm...that's why I was thinking about buying a midi thru box, so that I don't need to daisy chain. I think that can solve this problem. But of course, I'd still have the problem that Cubase systems can't use midi clock as input...but perhaps it could work tight enough via MTC over midi cable too.
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Because of that Midi clock gets most often used in combination with wordclock. Since SPDif is wordclock, I see no problem!
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In combination? So the latency of your midi clock would get corrected by the wordclock or something like that?
But then you would also need a midi cable connection (for midi clock) and a S/PDIF connection for the word clock?
So I guess for my situation it comes down to this:
It's best that I buy a midi thru box (which hopefully will be compatible with midi clock and MTC), let a cubase system send MTC to it, which then can be received via all other systems. And perhaps the cubase systems can also interconnect.
S/PDIF sync would be better but since a lot of us will be using Ableton Live, it won't be an option. (between cubase systems on the other hand it would be possible)
If anybody out here has some other advice or info about this: please, shoot!
Thanks a lot and greets! |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
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Posted : May 29, 2008 20:59
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Midi timecode is as accurate as 24, 25 29.92, 30, frames per second, and that does not include drop or non drop frame. While that is nowhere near the accuracy of lets say a wordclock that has 44.1k increments in a second, it is nevertheless accurate enough to sync 2 devices or more.
If you buy yourself a midi thru box.
Yes the latency of your midi clock would be corrected by your wordclock.
If I was you, I would have one master, and all the other devices would be connected parallel, not daisychained. The question really is how good a box are you getting?
If I was you, I would spend the necessary money and get myself something that is not exclusively midi but has as many other options as possible, so your future sync problems will always and easily be dealt with.
To answer the question, yes, you would need both cables, although SPDiF is not your only wordclock format. Tdif for instance or AES/EBU are also wordclock formats and can be used just as well.
It boils down to what connectors you have...
Now what kind of wordclock/timecode can be fed into Cubase?
And is it dependent on Cubase or your soundcard?
Yes, I would buy a "midi thru box" that has timecode as well as wordclock features. And buy a good one at that, otherwise you might be dissapointed!
In my opinion you should spend at least $ 500 and get something decent, something that is reliable and something that has as many different timecode/wordclock formats as possible.
All this said, I wish you happy syncing man. And let me know if I can come by and sync my daw up as well...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Dr.Drane
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
22
Posted : May 30, 2008 15:45
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I can't thank you enough for the input! So thanks again for the very helpful reply. 
This information is really very useful for me, and not always easy to find.
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On 2008-05-29 20:59, Upavas wrote:
Midi timecode is as accurate as 24, 25 29.92, 30, frames per second, and that does not include drop or non drop frame. While that is nowhere near the accuracy of lets say a wordclock that has 44.1k increments in a second, it is nevertheless accurate enough to sync 2 devices or more.
If you buy yourself a midi thru box.
Yes the latency of your midi clock would be corrected by your wordclock.
If I was you, I would have one master, and all the other devices would be connected parallel, not daisychained. The question really is how good a box are you getting?
If I was you, I would spend the necessary money and get myself something that is not exclusively midi but has as many other options as possible, so your future sync problems will always and easily be dealt with.
To answer the question, yes, you would need both cables, although SPDiF is not your only wordclock format. Tdif for instance or AES/EBU are also wordclock formats and can be used just as well.
It boils down to what connectors you have...
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Well, I have a lot of connectors on my audio interface (RME fireface 400). You can see the connectors here: http://www.rme-audio.de/images/products/products_fireface_400_6b.jpg
But I guess the people I'm going to work with not all are going to have such pricey devices...still I assume most of them will have S/PDIF via RCA on their device. (this is quite standard on decent interfaces nowadays) But will this (S/PDIF via RCA connectors) will be enough to use wordclock in conjunction with MTC over midi when syncing their computer with mine?
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Now what kind of wordclock/timecode can be fed into Cubase?
And is it dependent on Cubase or your soundcard?
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Well...I'm not that experienced in Cubase, but in the sync settings of cubase:
http://www.appletree.be/mm/cubaseprefs.jpg
I can't find anything about wordclock. I only see stuff like MTC and Midi Clock. I know my audio interface is capable of using wordclock though.
Maybe Cubase just accepts the MTC signal and my audio interface will compensate/correct the latency automatically. (hehe, at least I hope so, cause this would make things easier I guess)
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Yes, I would buy a "midi thru box" that has timecode as well as wordclock features. And buy a good one at that, otherwise you might be dissapointed!
In my opinion you should spend at least $ 500 and get something decent, something that is reliable and something that has as many different timecode/wordclock formats as possible.
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Well, at the moment I'm thinking about buying one of these two devices because I have a limited budget for this:
1) TAPCO Link Midi 4x4 http://www.tapcoworld.com/products/linkmidi/index.html
This one can be used as a 1x4 midi thru box. It does not support wordclock or anything, but it might be enough to suit my needs (for the moment).
2) Emagic AMT-8 http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/page/shop/flypage/product_id/583
Perhaps you know this one, it's supposed to used a lot together with video. I can buy them second hand. It has 8x8 I/O and can be used as a patchbay/switchboard too (but I don't need that feature). But I don't think it supports word clock, and since it's an old device (and apple bought the company) there's no support/guaranteee anymore.
But hearing your advice...maybe I can better save some more cash and go for this one:
Motu Micro Express http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MicroExpUSB/
This one does has a lot of synchronization functions:
* Generate and read SMPTE time code (LTC)
* Convert LTC to MIDI Time Code (MTC) to sync a Mac, PC or other devices to SMPTE
* Convert all SMPTE frame rates (24, 25, 29.97 drop, 29.97 non-drop, 30)
* Stripe SMPTE time code in all frame rates
* Convert MIDI Time Code to SMPTE time code
* Operate in SMPTE "Jam Sync" with adjustable freewheeling for dropout-free sync
* Connect MIDI Machine Control devices and serve as either an MMC master or slave
So it has SMTPE jack connectors. You think I could use them to get my midi syncing more accurate somehow?
And to what audio interface should these be connected when working with more people? (assuming everyone has a decent audio interface with S/PDIF) Will everybody need (besides a midi cable) an S/PDIF connection from their audio interface to the Motu box then? I don't understand because the motu only has 2 jacks for SMTPE, how can every body else connect their spdif then? Daisy chained perhaps?
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All this said, I wish you happy syncing man. And let me know if I can come by and sync my daw up as well...
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Thanks a whole lot! I really appreciate your help very much.
If you ever would come to Belgium, just give me a sign and we can have DAW jam! (hopefully perfectly synced ;-p) 
 
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : May 31, 2008 02:49
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The Motu micro imo is a good choice, I would go for that, unless you can spend more money. I don't know enough about the motu sync i/o but I can tell you that the more you pay, the more accuracy you usually get. Also I would make sure you can connect more than 2 devices!. Sometimes that is not possible, depending on the sync i/o !!!.
Keep in mind that the master device should have the best connection possible to your sync i/o... so try using the usb from your computer and then sync the rest via MTC
As far as SPDiF daisychaining is concerned, that is an interesting question. It is more accurate and has less latency issues than midiclock for sure, but I am not sure about how many devices you can successfully daisychain there.... Please let me know when you try....
And since you cannot find wordclock in Cubase, use timecode , in your case MTC. Since you have plenty midi jacks on the motu, you don't need to daisychain, you should be fine running the slaves parallel, which is better anyhow!
Maybe see you in Belgium sometime.
Have fun! Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Dr.Drane
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
22
Posted : May 31, 2008 16:10
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On 2008-05-31 02:49, Upavas wrote:
The Motu micro imo is a good choice, I would go for that, unless you can spend more money. I don't know enough about the motu sync i/o but I can tell you that the more you pay, the more accuracy you usually get. Also I would make sure you can connect more than 2 devices!. Sometimes that is not possible, depending on the sync i/o !!!.
Keep in mind that the master device should have the best connection possible to your sync i/o... so try using the usb from your computer and then sync the rest via MTC
As far as SPDiF daisychaining is concerned, that is an interesting question. It is more accurate and has less latency issues than midiclock for sure, but I am not sure about how many devices you can successfully daisychain there.... Please let me know when you try....
And since you cannot find wordclock in Cubase, use timecode , in your case MTC. Since you have plenty midi jacks on the motu, you don't need to daisychain, you should be fine running the slaves parallel, which is better anyhow!
Maybe see you in Belgium sometime.
Have fun!
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And again, thanks!
I'm going to save some more money for a month or two then so I can at least afford the motu. I will keep this thread updated.
If you ever would come to Belgium always welcome here! And I know where you can find the good goa parties here.
Take care, thx and greets! |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : May 31, 2008 20:49
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