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Best way of midi syncing sequencers? Midiclock seems not accurate enough...
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Dr.Drane
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22
Posted : May 23, 2008 15:40:04
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Hello,
I've got some questions concerning midi syncing sequencers like Ableton and Cubase.
I tried a normal midiclock sync between 2 Abletons, and midiclock sync with Cubase as master and Ableton as slave. I noticed that when 1 pc makes a kick and the other percussion the timing is not accurate enough. Do other people have the same experience?
Also I noticed (correct me if 'm wrong) that Cubase can't receive midiclock. => Therefore you can only interconnect Cubase systems with spdif.
On the other hand it seems Ableton can send and receive midiclock, but it can only receive MTC.
So how could you connect Ableton systems via spdif if it can only send midiclock?
Hope someone can help me out here, because it seems syncing multiple sequencers accurately is a real pain in the @ss.
Thansk a lot! |
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Mesq
Reality Pixie
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34
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671
Posted : May 23, 2008 19:22
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Well ... Firstly
I frequently am using MIDI clock syncronisation with 3 Ableton computers in a serial configuration and we have no troubles at all.
Are you actually compensating for latency??
When you are both syncronised you should both turn on the metronome... and adjust the MIDI clock sync delay. We never have too much troubles.
Most of the time we have to offset the sync time by 5ms it depends on your MIDI interface and the length of your MIDI cable.
If you are using macintosh then you can use the core audio drivers to connect over ethernet.
Anyway. Syncing multiple sequencers IS sort of a pain in the arse. But you can definitely get it sounding pretty tite.
If you have any actual specific issues with syncing ableton feel free to ask.
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Glitch_CapeTown
IsraTrance Junior Member
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952
Posted : May 23, 2008 19:34
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : May 23, 2008 23:53
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This interests me to..
Yeah cubase goes via spdif (VST system link) but also with miditimecode, I slaved cubase to a MTC of external synth so it should go with Live also....
Under transport choose sync setup and choose MTC source..
Then press T or sync online.. Send MTC from ableton..
You can only send MIDI clock in cubase.. But if u can receive it on ableton..
Like mesq said, compensate for latency in ableton..
Nuendo offers networking via LAN, better but not real time.. But only option for me since I dont have MIDI on other PC..
 http://www.myspace.com/djacidkills
http://soundcloud.com/acidkills/dropbox |
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Mesq
Reality Pixie
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
671
Posted : May 24, 2008 05:08
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-23 19:34, Glitch_CapeTown wrote:
yea the problem is its harder to compensate for delay in cubase... i know in ableton u can just set it on the channel, im not sure about cubase tho..
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No you don't wanna set delay on individual channels. You want to sync the whole transport.
Goto:
Preferences > Midi/Sync >
There is an arrow next to Input (or Output) Click on that to reveal the MIDI sync options. Set your Clock type to "song". Now turn on metronomes on both Computers and adjust the latency using the "MIDI sync clock delay" bit.
And yeah.. Cubase sends MTC and Ableton Receives it... Sounds logical to me. |
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Upavas
Upavas
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150
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3315
Posted : May 24, 2008 11:16
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This is one of the reasons I love Pro Tools, no problem at all there. What you need is a kind of interface like pro tools that is called sync I/O
There have to be other wordclock converters out there?
Something like the MOTU MIDI Timepiece AV !
Simply a device that lets you connect different timecodes and wordclocks...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
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26
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431
Posted : May 24, 2008 11:57
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Mesq
Reality Pixie
Started Topics :
34
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671
Posted : May 24, 2008 12:10
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^^ yep .. ur right. |
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acidkills
IsraTrance Junior Member
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26
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431
Posted : May 24, 2008 13:00
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Dr. Drane let us now if that works.. Im thinking about buying USB to MIDI converter from e-mu to achieve that.. Otherwise Ill just have to go through spdif system link in cubase.. I got cables and all, but havent tried it yet since I dont need it live for now..
I do networking in Nuendo but would like to try this..
http://www.myspace.com/djacidkills
http://soundcloud.com/acidkills/dropbox |
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Dr.Drane
Started Topics :
2
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22
Posted : May 26, 2008 14:24
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-23 19:22, Mesq wrote:
...
Are you actually compensating for latency??
When you are both syncronised you should both turn on the metronome... and adjust the MIDI clock sync delay. We never have too much troubles.
Most of the time we have to offset the sync time by 5ms it depends on your MIDI interface and the length of your MIDI cable.
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Aha! Well, I thought I was compensating the latency, but what I was actually doing is:
In the audio tab, I adjusted the "Driver Error Compensation" on all computers so that the overal latency would become 0. Anybody knows what the difference is between those 2 latencies?
One for midi, one for audio perhaps?
Quote:
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On 2008-05-24 13:00, acidkills wrote:
Dr. Drane let us now if that works.. Im thinking about buying USB to MIDI converter from e-mu to achieve that.. Otherwise Ill just have to go through spdif system link in cubase.. |
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I will try to compensate the latency with the "MIDI Clock Sync Delay" today and post my findings here.
And about S/PDIF...can this be used to actually midi sync? I read somewhere it's used to transport audio between sequencers, but it would be nice you could get a tighter (compared to a midi cable) sync via this digital connection.
Thanks a lot for your replies!! |
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Upavas
Upavas
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3315
Posted : May 27, 2008 01:44
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Colin OOOD
Moderator
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Posted : May 27, 2008 01:54
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Dr.Drane
Started Topics :
2
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22
Posted : May 27, 2008 11:23
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Quote:
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On 2008-05-27 01:44, Upavas wrote:
Spdif can absolutely be used to sync 2 devices together. Provided both have Spdif connectors or you can use any kind of sync i/o.
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Ever tried this? What sequencers did you use? You think it works more tightly than via midi cables?
I've been looking for this awnser on like 5 different fora:
E.g.:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=698144#698144
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91160&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
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On 2008-05-27 01:54, Colin OOOD wrote:
That's more for audio clock sync though, isn't it? Or do I misunderstand?
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Indeed, as far as I've heard the most common use is transporting audio tracks between sequencers indeed...but perhaps it will allow a tighter sync too. (I hope so)
Greets and thanks a lot for the input people! |
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Upavas
Upavas
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150
Posts :
3315
Posted : May 28, 2008 10:27
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There are two main ways to sync two devices together, one is Timecode, the other is wordclock.
Whatever the two devices are if they have the same type of input eg. LTC, MTC, Video cable, AES/EBU 9 pin, spdif they can be synced together.
Now it so happens that sometimes you cannot sync two devices together because they do not have the same type of out and input. So some companies have come up with sync i/o's, they enable you to clock 2 devices together through a box.
You insert for instance a Midi time code (MTC) into a sync i/o and go out with an AES/EBU connection to a different device.
On one occasion I had a cd player which had a SPDiF out, I connected that to a 192 i/o from digidesign which had a SPDiF in. In Pro Tools I was able to determine which one of the 2 was master and which slave. All that worked fine as long as I made sure the session I had open in Pro Tools was 44100 hz, just like a cd.
On another occasion I hooked up two sound cards (mbox 2 pro) with a SpDiF cable and was also able to determine which one was the master and which one the slave. I also had a midi controller hooked up to one of the m-boxes. When that mbox was slaved to the other the other (master m-box was able to receive the midi signal from the slaved M-box.
You have to watch out though, that's where sampling rates and frame rates come in. In order to sync your devices together they have to be the same sampling frequencies. If one device runs on 48k samling rate and the other on 44.1 k , you will encounter problems.
if you have timecode or wordclock, they are as accurate as the device is. If you have a sampling rate of 44.1 k, that is certainly more accurate than a timecode with eg. 24 frames per second.
Also if you daisychain too many devices after another you may encounter what is called midi latency, where you have a short delay. Make sure your midi cables are not too long and use whatever has the most instances in a given time frame.
The link below provides an idea of a sync i/o that is not dependent on digidesign...
http://www.motu.com/products/midi/xpressxt_usb
I am sure there are many other devices out there that can sync anything you want together...
And this gets really complicated if you sync sound to film, especially in North America, where we have NTSC, which means a frame rate of 29.97 frames per second...
You can convert any timecode into any wordclock, provided you have a box (sync i/o) that accepts both...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : May 28, 2008 22:51
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Forgot to mention... Midi uses Timecode, SPDif uses wordclock!
Also in film we used to have to sync a hell of a lot when we were using DA98's . Pro Tools is really excellent for that. aT TIMES THE da98 WAS THE MASTER AND pRO tOOLS FOLLOWED IT'S COMMANDS NICELY. oN ANOTHER OCCASION i HAD TO STRIPE TIMECODE ONTO AN EMPTY TAPE, IN WHICH pRO tOOLS WAS THE MASTER...I just wish they had the midi flexibility of e.g. FL8 !
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
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