Kaz
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 21:03
Quote:
On 2009-02-04 20:19, traveller wrote:
Quote:
Atheism is a kind of religion in it's own sense..
So if somebody claims that there's a 77 meter tall manbearpig in your bathroom (a claim far less ridiculous than that of an existence of an omnipotent god) and you doubt the claim you're being "religious" instead of "rational"?
I claim that knowing that a higher power does not exist is not based on fact, therefor, a belief without a solid foundation in reality as to the process in which the universe itself works, hence, a religious belief.
Prove to me there is no such thing as a higher power. Also, prove that manbearpig was NOT in your bathroom when you were not looking http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222
nomadics
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 21:33
Quote:
On 2009-02-04 21:03, Kaz wrote:
I claim that knowing that a higher power does not exist is not based on fact, therefor, a belief without a solid foundation in reality as to the process in which the universe itself works, hence, a religious belief.
Prove to me there is no such thing as a higher power. Also, prove that manbearpig was NOT in your bathroom when you were not looking
this reminds me of a long time favorite comic strip in the Sunday paper.
On the one side, you have a man pointing to some papers (research maybe?) telling a kid "Here are the facts, now what conclusions can we derive.."
On the other side you have a man pointing to a bible, telling a child "Here are the conclusions, now what facts can we draw from it.."
Pretty clever I thought. I also think it's kind of wierd to label atheism as a religion.. unless by that we mean to say atheism values Reason above all. Reason I think has also been a part of the "Natural" state of human beings. and as we progress, so does our need to employ Reason, theoretically and practically.
quantum frog, ca
Fria Tantrumm
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 00:39
Quote:
On 2009-02-04 20:19, traveller wrote:
Quote:
Atheism is a kind of religion in it's own sense..
So if somebody claims that there's a 77 meter tall manbearpig in your bathroom (a claim far less ridiculous than that of an existence of an omnipotent god) and you doubt the claim you're being "religious" instead of "rational"?
Rationality, when used by the layman, is just a eloquent term that is extremely relative. And to point, some of the greatest Scinetists in Human Kind, who actually rationalised on a far superior level than your manbearpig example....they too believed in God.
Einstein for example, having made numerous references to a GOD...and at the same time proving to be an exceptional scientist, who eventually had to come to terms with the fact that "THERE IS in fact spooky action at a distance even in physics"
@ Nomadic...reason is not a natural state of mind, it's a collection of conditioning and prejudices that moulds one ability to reason, rationalise and theorise....the universe is not reasonable, neither is nature...so how do you come to the notion of REASON being a natural state of mind...it is just an offshoot and a virtue of the civilized.
While I am not big on the bible and don't take it too seriously as I do not take most of the recent religions (Christianity/Islam)I believe in GOD and the existance of a GOD.
Our ancestors believed in a GOD/Spirit, this is natural, it comes from an inner sense or INSTINCT rather than "rationalization"...Instinct is the most powerfull tool, and in this day and age most humans have a very dull instinctual sense and that's why we all tend to hide behind "practicality, rationality etc etc". Screw rationalism...I'ld go with instinct anyday
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psycho-italiano
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 01:43
YES: a huge YES YES YES! Religion is the main and only problem of the universe! It’s the reason why there are so many wars!
I know many people from deferent religions , and from a self experience , I found that those or others, they all think they are the best and they deserve the best and each one of these religion groups thinks that the rest of groups are totally wrong and must convert themselves to their own religion group…
They have total pure hate!
I wonder, if they hate them selves then how can they love others…
I start with my father and mother, they are religious , when they pray to God I used to make fun of them. Yes I know its non respect but I acted like that in order to let them take few things that they miss in life. ….they used to think that they are the best religion…..so what I was doing is:
I was Taking those “religion” books and burn them on front of my mother eyes, till she was crying and crying…I did this many times, I was “maybe evil” , but after doing this few times, she became used to it then next time when I through the religion books on the floor and put my foots on It or spit on it, she simply was apathetic , or didn’t even notice … never cared , she was seeing those books as newspaper…
My message to her was: to let her get out of that “fear bubble” … she feared a lot from that so called : “God”.
I mean, even if he exists…he made many mistake and he doesn’t deserve good treat.
But it doesnt exists. Everything is thoughts…
Anyway, people that are important to me, like parents, were affecting me too much.
So I felt that must change their minds.
Well, today they are still religious , but they are not like before , they do it as meditation , but never talk about other religion , coz if they do this mistake then they see satan on front of them : ME.
I like to be satan with bad religion people.
But hey, to you religious people, if you do religion as something you love or as meditation then its very healthy and I respect you.
But its really very rare to find like those people except of the Tibetian monks that do it from hart! and full meditative thing!
99% of religion guys will never admit what I said, and they even will deny it. they will act as they are real angels..."no politics....bla bla"...but they are pure politics...full hate to others. no real love.
But try to set with one them alone and ask his opinion about other religion and see what he will say…..
i did it with many people in Israel from the whole 3 main religions, and all of them were SUX.
Non of them show real love to others.
They all think they are the best.
And God / prophets promised them lands , peace , shit …and other garbage…. And they must fight for that……..HUH?! ! crazy dudes….
Religion is a Jail for the mind and acts as poison when trying to do logical things. Coz Logic & religion don’t go right together.
From one side , religion ask people to have inner peace , but in the other hand to fight.
I believe the main religion should be love and peace. Those 2 words , no other things….people must live all together without borders all around the world…..
we born free we must stay physically free and mentally free (without any set of religion in our minds).
We should only gain the love feelings in our systems, and be peaceful to others, then iam sure no one will fell bad and everyone will realize that religion is a creation of some selfish but smart leader that wanted to make a powerful group that will serve him and gain some money , lands , or any other personal stuff….
so he created this whole thing called religion…..and after the death of the leader person, people continued to believe in his movie called religion………
then came another leader that made another version of the old movie/story in order to have also a powerful group that will server him…and so on those leaders kept changing till last one that screwed any chance to a new lader coz he said he is the last one….and that’s the end of the leaderships movies…
people kept holding those rules and they are using it today to make wars…
Accept it or not….
this is the truth…… religion is evil except if its done for meditation (and that’s rare).
Peace!
Break The Matrix!
nomadics
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 02:04
Hey Italiano, crazy story man. im with you on many levels and I think the most important thing is Respect. Respect for eachother no matter where we stand on the spectrum. I really wish more discussions can be reached between different sides in any topic. ITs all about learning and growing, in one or many directions. For me the problem is not having a chance to do so and being programmed from the start, no matter what program it is.. religion science..
check out minute 6:30 of this movie.
God and religion are different subjects/concepts. And atheism, imo, stands against the latter.
quantum frog, ca
traveller
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 14:42
Quote:
On 2009-02-05 00:39, Fria Tantrumm wrote:
Rationality, when used by the layman, is just a eloquent term that is extremely relative. And to point, some of the greatest Scinetists in Human Kind, who actually rationalised on a far superior level than your manbearpig example....they too believed in God.
Einstein for example, having made numerous references to a GOD...and at the same time proving to be an exceptional scientist, who eventually had to come to terms with the fact that "THERE IS in fact spooky action at a distance even in physics"
Einstein talking about claims like the one you just made there:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
When Einstein said "God does not play dice" he ment "randomness does not lie at heart of all things". Einstein only used the word god in a metaphorical poetic sense.
Here's one more quote from Einstein:
"But I prefer not to call myself religious because it's misleading. It's destructively misleading because, for the vast majority of people 'religion' implies supernatural."
Carl Sagan said:
"If by "god" one means the set of physical laws that govern the Universe (what Einstein ment for example), then clearly there is such god. This god is emotionally unsatisfying.. it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity."
So.. want to try to name any other accomplished post Darwinian scientists who believed in god? You know, it's been shown that there's strong positive correlation between IQ and atheism. The smarter you are, the less likely you're to believe in god or father christmas.
traveller
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 15:03
Quote:
On 2009-02-04 21:03, Kaz wrote:
I claim that knowing that a higher power does not exist is not based on fact, therefor, a belief without a solid foundation in reality as to the process in which the universe itself works, hence, a religious belief.
The thing is that most atheists don't claim to "know" that there is no god. Instead they fail to believe in one because they find the claim ridiculous.
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven
traveller
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 15:34
Can't edit. Anyways google "define atheism". Not a single one of those definitions says anything about "knowing"..
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven
Fria Tantrumm
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 15:57
@ Traveller....you make the mistake of lumping GOD and Religion together.
Belief and faith in a GOD does not always translate into a belief in organised Religion. Many believe in a GOD yet do not align with any religion.
Yes, Einstein did not beleive in organised Religion, but he had faith in a GOD, not a GOd that keeps account of our good and bad deeds and then proceeds to punish....
Here are some of my quotes by him
" Can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things."
"Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who strive for truth, beauty, and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated. The most beautiful and deepest experience a man can have is the sense of the mysterious. It is the underlying principle of religion as well as all serious endeavour in art and science. He who never had this experience seems to me, if not dead, then at least blind. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious. To me it suffices to wonder at these secrets and to attempt humbly to grasp with my mind a mere image of the lofty structure of all that is there."
In fact now when I think of it, most pioneering scientists, engineers, architects throughout history, believed in a GOD. Michelangelo, Da Vinci all devoted their art to a GOD and were even extremely religious... Many Soul moving monumnets and a plethora of art and creation have been borne out of religion and a faith in GOD. **************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
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traveller
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 16:26
Quote:
On 2009-02-05 15:57, Fria Tantrumm wrote:
@ Traveller....you make the mistake of lumping GOD and Religion together.
Belief and faith in a GOD does not always translate into a belief in organised Religion. Many believe in a GOD yet do not align with any religion.
Yes, Einstein did not beleive in organised Religion, but he had faith in a GOD, not a GOd that keeps account of our good and bad deeds and then proceeds to punish....
From God Delusion:
"The Nobel Prize-winning physicist (and atheist) Steven Weinberg made the point as well as anybody, in Dreams of a Final Theory:
Some people have views of God that are so broad and flexible that it is inevitable that they will find God wherever they look for him. One hears it said that 'God is the ultimate' or 'God is our better nature' or 'God is the universe.' Of course, like any other word, the word 'God' can be given any meaning we like. If you want to say that 'God is energy,' then you can find God in a lump of coal.
Weinberg is surely right that, if the word God is not to become completely useless, it should be used in the way people have generally understood it: to denote a supernatural creator that is 'appropriate for us to worship'."
That is the kind of god most religious people believe in and atheists (like Einstein) do not.
Spinoza's god has nothing to do with anything magical, holy, spiritual or supernatural. It's just an attempt to make people realize the beauty and marvel of the Universe. It's atheism and nature under a different name."The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven
Fria Tantrumm
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 18:16
@Traveller
Your insistence to call Einstein an atheist is in conflict with Einstein's own sentiments to NOT be called one...I re paste his own words :
EINSTEIN SAYS
" Can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God . We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things."
Magical and supernatural are synonymous with mysterious and inexplicable... Nature is not rational, practical or easily understood.
Early religions believed in Nature, Animals and the spirit..and I align with such.... Mayan, Egyptian, American Indian, Zoroastrianism and to these early religions GOD was not an item of worship necessarily..Zoroastrianism being an Anti Deity Religion which denies the use of idols in it's temples, the "GOD" in this religion is fire, the purest of element, it is a nature based religion, still alive So your quotes on Weinberg do not make sense in this context because they seem to be aimed at Judaism and Christianity and maybe Islam...
I guess Atheism grew for an abhoration of nonsensical religions like maybe Catholicism, but this is not the end all or be all of world religion.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
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traveller
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 19:06
That quote is not compatible with the quote from Einstein I posted and also its accuracy has been disputed..
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven
traveller
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 20:12
Having researched this a little bit more I must conclude that he did not see himself as an atheist. The thing is thou that his god was nothing like the god people try to convince others he believed in. That's were the Weinberg quote comes handy. If we're talking about god in conventional sense then he was an atheist. However if we define god as nature or the laws that govern our universe, then yes, he believed in that.
That argument from admired scientists is flawed anyways so none of this really matters.
Quote:
When asked by an astounded atheist, if he were in fact deeply religious, Einstein replied:
Yes, you can call it that. Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind all the discernible concatenations, there remains something subtle, intangible and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent I am, in point of fact, religious.
I mostly agree with that. I just don't see it having anything to do with religions. "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven
Fria Tantrumm
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 21:44
To clump a whole plethora of beliefs into a term "Religion" is a bit misleading..as there is an insane difference in most religions, Eastern and Western, New Age and Old Age...not many of them view GOD in the same manner.
SO to talk of God in a conventional sense based on a quote from a Western scientist with a Jewish background, does not apply to all...Weinberg's concept of GOD probably was a result of his upbringing in a Jewish household, one that can be quite restrictive, maybe he couldn't rationalize or make sense of the myriad Do's and Don'ts of it.
But as I said before..the whole concept of GOD initially stemmed from the awe the first humans felt when witnessing an eclipse, or when exposed to a furious storm, or when witnessing shooting stars....GOD was synonymous with Nature, and thus the early humans sacrificed, prayed performed rituals in order to appease an entity that was in charge of the Natural order...this is the basis of most early religions.
So to Weinberg, his concept and dislike for GOD was based on his jewish upbringing and the modern slightly twisted concept of GOD, but this does not pertain to all religions or to the notion of GOD at all...as I said, a vast population still believe in a GOD based on the natural order....Villagers in many 3rd world countries still pray to the skies, and try to appease the GOD of rain and etc etc and while this might not make sense to a rational person, it is actually beautifull and reminiscent of an innocence and an awe for nature..praying to the GOD of rain, is a nature based concept and still exists and is still part of a very old religion and this is exactly the GOD I am referring to and this is the only GOD many people still believe in..one that governs the laws of nature.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
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Kaz
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Posted : Feb 5, 2009 22:39
Disbelief in a higher power is NOT scientific or based on logic - that would require a concrete proof.
Which
does
not
exist.
Atheism is NOT something that values reason above all (that would be rationalism). It is a belief not worthy of being called a philosophy. It's about on one single issue. There's nothing more to it. But most people who define themselves as such make it a point to explain why all religions are wrong - in an act of irrational fanaticism. They say that all religions cause wars, racism, etc... while they are slamming the majority of the people around them for being ignorant.
The beginning of wisdom is knowing how little you really know - the 'classic' atheist viewpoint is: "Atheism, as an explicit position, can be either the affirmation of belief in the nonexistence of a god or gods, or the rejection of theism." (first line, Wikipedia), and the main point here is that it is a BELIEF, a belief which views most other belief systems as inferior. The same fault that atheists like to blame religions for.
I call to say that all beliefs are equally stupid, yet equally beautiful. They can all be used as justification for horrible things (just as Hitler used Nietzsche, the most popular atheist philosopher, as one of his justifications for genocide), but can cause beautiful things to happen, things that would not have been possible otherwise. What I see in this thread are a load of people saying "but no, you're wrong".
I say: everyone is wrong in their beliefs. We are all humans, and as such, we have deep flaws in how we work, and thinking that you've got a point down to a level that is the absolute truth just makes you an absolute idiot. But we all touch the same inner truth, we all strive for it, each in our own way... and that is a good thing. People have hate in them, and they use their belief that they are right to justify it. Everyone does it. It's all part of being human. We are not machines, we are not error-free. This is a part of us.
I truly believe that accepting the possibility that someone else may be right is the only way you will be able to see beyond your own prejudices and overcome your misconceptions. When you do that, you can not see just the faults of religion, but also the wisdom that can be gleaned from it's study, and find out that it isn't 100% wrong.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222
