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Atheism vs. Religion
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nomadics
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95
Posted : Jan 30, 2009 22:28
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well i thinks it is very conceivable that atheism has underpinnings in secular humanism, existentialism... these are not mutually exclusive. In fact, the belief that there is no fatherly God to take care of us often leads to a humanist perspective that in fact we humans must take care of eachother bc there is such god to do so.
Its true that atheism in the states is often derived against Christianity as a public political philosophy. but i dont think that is what you are saying.. you're saying atheist are high browed bourgeoisie agianst the more "humble" spiritual type.. which i think is a false dichotomy.
  quantum frog, ca |
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jds
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384
Posted : Jan 31, 2009 19:41
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On 2009-01-30 22:07, Kaz wrote:
I'm saying that secular humanism doesn't involve a higher power, but isn't first saying "I don't believe in God" but rather saying what you *do* believe in. Saying what you don't believe in as a definition is like telling someone who is drinking grape juice that asks you what you like to drink "not grape juice".
Anyone has a right to believe what they will, but they should know what they're doing 
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I see what you're trying to get at but you have to understand that both sides of that argument are exactly the same. Defining yourself by what you 'do' believe in creates the same separation from what you don't believe in. It's the same thing. There is no moral high ground there.
All labels are worthless. I can't say I've ever felt comfortable describing myself by any noun or 'ist'. It's all ego attachment BS. Who we are is who we are, not what brand we choose to try to associate ourselves with. I don't particularly believe in anything and I found your previous comment about condescension offensive. Curious since your point was to try to paint others as such. |
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segment 7
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Feb 1, 2009 18:53
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Religion preserves peace by giving a message of how to be a good person, but can also be used as an excuse for bad when people of a certain religion assert their beliefs on others, in much the same way that atheism preserves peace by making people all over the world have the same beliefs, but can also be used in the same way as religion to assert your beliefs on others. In the end atheism is a religion in itself, I'm sure if you don't follow a religion then you believe in science. I myself have no particular religious beliefs but although alot of science is obviously true, i can't say i believe all of it.
I think if people took religion a little less seriously (not wanting to cause any offence) and simply lived by the good messages ingrained in whatever religion it may be then we could all live in peace, without feeling the need to impose our views on others. I for one don't believe in a higher power as such, but i like to live my life by the little snippets of gold that come out of all different religions.
Just my 2 cents, i know some are gonna disagree, it's always gonna be a fragile topic, humans naturally don't like to have their own ideas challenged.
'Each investagator most readily sees that factor in the world which corresponds to his peculiarity... each see's things from a different angle, and thus they evolve fundamentally different views and theories...'- Carl Jung
Ben
Projection makes perception. The world is what you gave it, nothing more than that. It is a witness to your state of mind, the outside picture of an inward condition. As a man thinketh, so does he perceive- Anonymous
www.myspace.com/segment7music |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Feb 1, 2009 22:28
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On 2009-01-30 16:15, Kaz wrote:
I'll just be brutally honest and say that the biggest group of atheists is not any mentioned so far, but rather spoiled rich kids that want to think they're better but not via money.
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Are you serious?
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Defining your spiritual beliefs as "I do not believe in a higher power" before anything else
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What a conveniet definition of atheism for your purposes. How about defining atheism as "absence" of belief instead of "denial"?
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 1, 2009 23:08
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On 2009-02-01 22:28, traveller wrote:
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On 2009-01-30 16:15, Kaz wrote:
I'll just be brutally honest and say that the biggest group of atheists is not any mentioned so far, but rather spoiled rich kids that want to think they're better but not via money.
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Are you serious? |
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Just as serious as everyone who goes saying what the average atheist background is. I'm saying that like every convert of every belief system, atheism is a source of fanaticism in which the believer is sure in his way being "the way", with all the arrogance that viewpoint ensues. This one being the most prominent one of "educated" folk.
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Defining your spiritual beliefs as "I do not believe in a higher power" before anything else
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What a conveniet definition of atheism for your purposes. How about defining atheism as "absence" of belief instead of "denial"?
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Lack of any belief is defined called nihilism, not atheism. A belief system with values not including a higher power is not "absence of belief". As opposed to nihilism which is the lack of any belief, atheism is much more specific as to disbelief in a higher power, but without ANY other context.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Feb 1, 2009 23:37
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"All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Login
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2009 04:48
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If all humans are born with no idea of god... where did it came from????
I think that whatever belief people has, what is far more important is that people knows to question their own beliefs and knowledge.
And I think here the real enemy isnt God (or religion) but the evil Platonic influence of the "only truth" and the incredible pernicious idea of the posibility of molding the world to our desires.
Its about open society versus closed ones, people who respect the rights of other to belief, be and express versus people who want everybody to think as they do.
"The dedication to repetition — the search for nirvana in a single held tone or an endlessly cycling rhythm — is one of electronic music's noblest gestures." |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2009 16:33
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On 2009-02-02 04:48, Login wrote:
If all humans are born with no idea of god... where did it came from????
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All humans are born with no idea of cars. Where did idea of cars come from? They say Ferdinand Verbiest, a member of a Jesuit mission in China, built the first steam-powered vehicle around 1672 which was of small scale and designed as a toy for the Chinese Emperor that was unable to carry a driver or a passenger, but quite possibly, was the first working steam-powered vehicle ('auto-mobile'). -wikipedia
Lots of people invented cars seperately, and I assume lots of people came up with an idea of a god too. Maybe someday we can build a working omnipotent god?  "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2009 17:15
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Lots of religious people hold important what is "natural". It's a shame they fail to acknowledge that atheism is the "natural" state of human mind 
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2009 17:48
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On 2009-02-02 17:15, traveller wrote:
Lots of religious people hold important what is "natural". It's a shame they fail to acknowledge that atheism is the "natural" state of human mind
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Do you notice how condescending your viewpoint is? As a philosophical arguement: all children are born with the love and knowledge of God, they just become confused by words and people until they forget. Unless you give me evidence disproving the belief of a baby in a higher power, I will call your quotes religious scripture, and you a religious fanatic that is sure that his is the way, the only way, to the light.
And I'll be doing the exact same thing you are. This is a theological debate, and you are not open-minded about any argument that goes against your belief. http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2009 20:30
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On 2009-02-02 17:15, traveller wrote:
Lots of religious people hold important what is "natural". It's a shame they fail to acknowledge that atheism is the "natural" state of human mind
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Well I can agree with that, but it doesnt mean that as cars, religion can be in some ways usefull and in other problematic.
"The dedication to repetition — the search for nirvana in a single held tone or an endlessly cycling rhythm — is one of electronic music's noblest gestures." |
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Jedi_knight
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Feb 2, 2009 22:01
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It's a matter of faith!
Many people find power in faith!
It helps them to face some problems.
It helps them to go on.
If you don't need some extra help from above maybe you don't need faith and maybe you don't need religion either!
I find it difficult to answer some basic questions of life without faith and without relegion.
I also feel that a creator exists behind the perfect creation of nature.
Logic sometimes isn't enough...
I had a car accident ones , very traumatic, and i was for some sec/min unconscious...
What i saw and what i felt can not be described with logic...
I believe in something because i feel it and because i need it.
I believe in GOD!
---RealPsyLifeForRealPsyPeople--- |
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Fria Tantrumm
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 07:51
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On 2009-02-02 22:01, Jedi_knight wrote:
It's a matter of faith!
Many people find power in faith!
It helps them to face some problems.
It helps them to go on.
If you don't need some extra help from above maybe you don't need faith and maybe you don't need religion either!
I find it difficult to answer some basic questions of life without faith and without relegion.
I also feel that a creator exists behind the perfect creation of nature.
Logic sometimes isn't enough...
I had a car accident ones , very traumatic, and i was for some sec/min unconscious...
What i saw and what i felt can not be described with logic...
I believe in something because i feel it and because i need it.
I believe in GOD!
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Exactly
I see alot of references to GOD as some guy, hiding behind the scenes, and used as a scapegoat to explain all phenomena that are inexplicable until science comes along and gives some viable explanation....
In my experience, GOD is just a term coined to describe an entity, a concept, ether or anything if you will in which one can have faith and belief. GOD morphed into the status of "Supreme being" as a means to simplify the identity of that which one could direct their faith or belief on. Thus GOD acquired a Human form at times.
I believe in a GOD, I believe that faith is an important emotion, I believe in Science and know a handfull of accomplished scientists and doctors who come from religious backgrounds, and are religious, and do believe in God, yet this in NO MANNER has hindered their abilities as scientists or doctors.
About Science:
In fact as far as I am concerned, with this continuous Scientific progress, technological breakthroughs all I see is a hurting planet that has been raped, I notice a regression in the quality of human beings, the body and brain work at minimum requirement, wars are won based on finance and not on strength, language recedes, disease on the increase....and one of the few things that calms me, gives me an optimistic outlook and a sense of happiness and strength is FAITH and my BELIEF...
Yet, I believe in Science, it's the deterioration of the human that uses science in such a destructive manner that I abhor.
Religion has never been the true instigator of wars. Religion has been conveniently used an an explanation for the violence humans will on each other.
If there was no Religion, humans would find another excuse to wage wars.
All Children are not born Atheists and Atheism is not the natural state of mind. We are born blank, this is not atheism..we are born immobile doesn't mean we are born cripple. Looking back on the evolution of HUman kind, the primal brain latched onto the concept of GOD worshipped as animals, plants, human, planets....this is natural.
To the educated, Atheism might seem a "natural" state...however this is based on a many eras of conditioning and contemplation.....our ancestors, the first humans were scared shitless by an eclipse, and their unconditioned minds found solace in linking such Phenomena to something that was given form..THIS IS THE NATURAL STATE of the mind..an innocence that leads one to an inherent belief in something mightier and elusive.
Atheism is a kind of religion in it's own sense..it just negates the existence of a GOD or a Deity. It still is a belief system.
Jainism and Buddhism do not specifically accept the existence of a GOD, yet they are Religions
GOD is just that which assumes responsibility for the profound beauty of that which can or cannot be explained by science.. Humans use religion in a negative context now, but that was never the intention, people also use science in a negative context now...what's the difference??
I come from a religious environment, and while I do not traditionally adhere to rules which do not make sense to me or seem unequal, sexist or of no positive and constructive value, I could have been conditioned to accept or embrace the notion of a belief in something called GOD by my surroundings....
However, My father in Law, who was brought up in a non religious family, during a communist era that insisted on no religion save for communism...developed a belief in GOD due to a near death experience he endured in a wayward village in Russia while on some crazy engineering expedition...Communist and Engineer (science oriented), yet one little dance with the unknown and voila...he has since been a non religious believer in a higher power with an interest and acceptance for most religions as in the end, religion was meant to highlight the concept of this HIGHER POWER ( I call this power GOD, but honestly it could be anything).
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 08:02
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in moments of hopelesness or despair or maybe with one side on the life and other visiting already death ..when sunrise arise out of nothing than you will love god ,higher energy or redeemer of your last hope. 1+ @ Jedi
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Feb 4, 2009 20:19
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Atheism is a kind of religion in it's own sense.. |
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So if somebody claims that there's a 77 meter tall manbearpig in your bathroom (a claim far less ridiculous than that of an existence of an omnipotent god) and you doubt the claim you're being "religious" instead of "rational"? "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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