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Atheism vs. Religion
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Jan 12, 2009 22:47
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On 2009-01-12 19:13, Kaz wrote:
I don't think God requires much of an explanation. Not only that - I can define God on strict physical terms making him an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent being. The fact that these forces are observed and studied does not make them less unexplainable. And when those are solved, we still have a load of bigger questions left open due to mathematical discrepancies between various theories (supposedly - solved by String Theory, a theory that people have not even been able to imagine an experiment that can somehow relate to it, and a theory that leaves much more questions than it solves).
It is not that I'm a religious person, but rather that physics is very far from explaining the way the universe works. Particle physics explains the creation small particles as "created through the fields of the small atomic force", meaning that matter is created by a force we cannot explain. It's a "there be dragons" explanation (when the maps of the world did not cover it all, that was one of the sentences used to describe the areas that were not yet charted). Physics as we know it today is NOT as solid as people think it is, and even if it were, it would not refute God's existence. There are loads of other areas where it's not much better than voodoo.
The biggest question in the philosophy of physics is a very simple one - does the universe really work on a basis that can be explained by mathematics? The answer is "probably not".
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How did an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent being come to be? Religious people always manage to ignore this part while they go about making their case against science because it can’t explain lack of causality at the beginning. I know the old testament ignores this part (in genesis) as well.
The best we’ve got at the moment is anthropic cosmological principle which simply states that if things weren’t the way the are they wouldn’t be so (and we wouldn’t be here). When you add the need for a creator to this it automatically becomes more complex thus requiring a more complex solution. If that creator was to be also omnipotent there would be no solution at all. "Can God draw a square circle?"
As to speculation about fundamental constants, I rather like the idea that the principles behind them are like that of pi.
About string theory, not my field but I actually remember reading something about an experiment that would test some hypothesis set by some version of string theory (maybe LHC related?). If you google ”test string theory” you can learn more about that stuff 
I don’t know how far science is from explaining the Universe, but it’s certainly closer than any religion.
  "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Browchakra
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 12, 2009 22:53
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No god ever existed up there..Thats right..But it doesnt end there, actually starts....Do we have to create Gods to survive or do we need to accept Oneness and the essence??? Allah, Yehova, Elohim...Call him whatever you want...He is the infinite power and you exist by the meanings of his names. You are not a part of it becasue he is not something you can divide into pieces. When you go to church or mosque you dont worship to him, do you think he needs your worshipping?? The infinite creator..You go to church because of the total energy, gaining kundalini i can say...Ysa, Muhammed all tried to say something...I am all i am...or Theres one another me inside me....All the msgs are pointing We are one...And no god exist to rule or show you what to do..Everythings holographic and connected...We are limited with 5 senses and its impossible to judge things with 5 senses...some can say...But i dont see Allah???
Well, im wishing everybody to wake up..remove the seals on their heart....to remember..not to understand..becasue we know already....
http://www.ahmedbaki.com/english/books/manreligion/howgreatisgod.htm |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Jan 12, 2009 23:48
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 15:25
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There is no explanation as to why the big bang actually happened. We know (more or less) how things were prior. We know (more or less) some of the things that happened after it. We know it makes mathematical sense that the process acted the way it did. It probably involved an incredibly strong yet unexplainable force, that we have no idea from where it originated, what happened to it, and exactly what it actually did. And considering the evidence isn't getting any fresher (some billions of years later), we have to wonder if physics could ever explain it.
The fact that God may be something that fits in philosophically with religion but can still allowed for by scientific theory is a possibility, and at the moment we are at a stage where we can see that this allowance will always be there. So the big question in this case is different: are abstract things real? In a modern view of the universe, where the lowest common denominator is not a particle or anything so crude but rather information, the answer is yes. The fact that abstract concepts have influence over day to day life is rather clear.
Using the logical fallacy that if a->b; b therefor a is the main reason people of science ignore the possibility of a higher power. And I used the word "ignore" for a simple reason - it is ignorant to say your life is based on logical conclusions and do that.
If you would say the existence of God is improbable, I would have no argument with you there. I believe that God may exist. A part of me hopes he does, because while I can not bring myself to believe in that God, I understand the comfort belief can give, and that is a good thing. I view God as a constant people can hold on to when everything else fails. Being against that is taking away from people their personal source of stability, the philosophical ground beneath their feet. It may be the "correct" thing to do, but that's not reason enough to do it in this case. Trying to do it is an act of religious arrogance as much as converting someone to a religion.
Added note: A string has no mass and no energy, and is in constant flux across eleven dimensions, of which we can observe only three, because the other eight are too small. We do not have anything built to detect something that small. The LHC experiments mentioned are to explain theoretical bits from particle physics - because we can detect some subatomic particles. But ones bigger by a few orders beyond strings. At the moment, String Theory is an abstract exercise of mathematics. Physics prides itself on being an experimental science... and this isn't. Not yet. Not by a long shot.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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kameleonpangea36
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Posted : Jan 15, 2009 19:25
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ok maybe my comment was a bit harsh. but I cant help it if I have something against right-wing conservatives in the USA(i.e.: the people who have run this country for the last 8 years). I feel they interpret the bible in their own way, force their views on others and are opposed to any kind of secularism in this country. And these backward thinking people have been controlling the government (luckily bush will be gone soon) of the country I live in and that affects me. Why should I leave America? And why do you defend people who clearly distort religion and use it as a political tool? You really think Jesus would approve the things the US Government has done in the last 8 years? Of course there are fanatics everywhere, there are also compassionate people everywhere. My only point is that right wing nutjob fanatics of America are the ones who have had the power for the last 8 years. And since America is the most powerful country that affects the whole world. Its the perfect example of what can happen when religion gets tied up into government and why Secularism is important.
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I agree the Bush administration has been very bad on the Christian faith.
but the fact is: they just know how to manipulate people’s beliefs.. using the word 'God' here and there really gets religious people worked up, and has helped them to stay in power for so long.
but its not like this country is just going to 'change' all of a sudden.. just look at all of Obamas nominees...
do you realize how many 'right wing Christians' voted for Obama? you would be surprised. This is a secular country, and you can worship anything you like, anything, or not worship anything...its totally up to you. hell even George Washington was more of a Hermetic than a Christian (just look at his clothing in all his pictures).
a couple things I find funny are.
a 'meaningful life' = a 'spiritual life'??
what exactly is 'meaningful'? im sure even hitler thought he had some sort of 'meaning'..
how can you have 'Spiritual' without the 'Spirit'??
another thing is how atheism is supposed to be so open minded, yet most atheist are some of the most condemning people toward religion i know?? i dont understand this. if you claim to be sooo open minded why not be open minded to ALL people including people of faith. and set an example to us 'God Believers'.
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Adigroovy
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 15, 2009 21:28
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I agree on that everyone has right to have his Believe, spiritual point of view or his faith. but where I can not agree is on the main monotheistic religions which used, using and will use the human's spirit for their goals = power. since 2000 years whole biggest miseries in our history are forthcoming from conflicts and tensions from those religions.
for sure there is spiritual side in all of them but with wrong purposes,
to use your head you have to go out of your mind |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Jan 18, 2009 20:08
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On 2009-01-15 19:25, kameleonpangea36 wrote:
another thing is how atheism is supposed to be so open minded, yet most atheist are some of the most condemning people toward religion i know?? i dont understand this. if you claim to be sooo open minded why not be open minded to ALL people including people of faith. and set an example to us 'God Believers'.
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What kind of an argument is that supposed to be? I don't approve genocide either and thus I'm not open minded?
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Gopendragon
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 19, 2009 08:16
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nice thread,personally I find it funny and not so serious,mad stuff to read all these different beliefs,almost got lost ...
If u ask me "do u belive in god?" I will tell u no,I dont belive in god because I know that He exists,I have seen Him and I am sure about he existances,although before some years I was just only beliving on Him,but now I know that he exists, as couple,a family,as a trinity,1 is Father 2 is Mother(holy spirit) and 3 the Son,Hermes Trismegistus said"as it is down it is up as it is up it is down also" as it is our mortal world down here it is the same with the imortal world up there(symbolic)
or 1 is Brahma 2 Vishnu and 3 is Shiva,or one is male two is female 3 is neutral. a lot of examples that may proove in a point how is god,but god is beyond these...
I dont need to proove this to anyone,esoterism as a spiritual science gives the proove,but also the science of the atheists gives a proove that god does not exists,ha,I think that these people who find prooves on the books,are just fall in illusion,because it cannnot really be true something that we "proove" just by a theory ,or a good explanation based on philosophy ,or mathematics,or the laws of physics and chemistry,because these laws soon or later will be nonsence,if u consider that our solar system is entering the rings of alcyon,and our planet earth soon is gonna enter the rings of alcyon,and the atmosphaire of earth will merge with the atmosphaire of the rings of alcyon,and if this happens,then the substance of the atmosphaire changes and the laws of physics and chemistry n some mathematics will change gradually as our planet earth will enter more inside these ringss of alcyon...do u know that science had invented the time machine,and with this machine they can go back to the past and receive hiostorical information,and also to the future..but they cannot pass beyond 2012,the time machine finds zero...why?
because god awaits there,and science dont have any proove now to explain,it is because god cannot be prooved by theories and mathematics.
Only each one of us personally and esoterically can find proove for the existance of god,I have found my prooves that I was searching for Him,and Her,I dont need to read any crap illusionary theory to discover god,I have already done by my self my inner self the research,,and do not expect from any other to give me prooves.
If u people search for a proove aboutr existance of god do it by ur own self,for ur self...
In Vedic philosophy prooves that God has a face,god has personality,Krishna the personality of Godhead,mayavadhis proove that god had no face..
Budhism believes that god is impersonal and have no face.
Even an atheist can achieve nirvana,and seat under teh brahma joti,the light that comes from the personal face of Godhead,but not under the Godhead,but even if u reach to seat under the lotus feet of Krishna,then u pass from Him and became a God,,and then u create ur own universe,through the god within u...but in the end who is god,whoo is that supreme being who is beyond the 3 sphaires of absolute on the top of the Kabbalistic tree of life?
Lets go there to find out;)
~~~~~~~namaskar~~~~~~~~~
After the End,a new Begining startS.. |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Jan 19, 2009 15:37
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On 2009-01-19 08:16, Gopendragon wrote:
do u know that science had invented the time machine,and with this machine they can go back to the past and receive hiostorical information,and also to the future..but they cannot pass beyond 2012,the time machine finds zero...why?
because god awaits there,and science dont have any proove now to explain,it is because god cannot be prooved by theories and mathematics.
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I see your knowledge on 2012 isn't quite up to date. Didn't you ever wonder why it was going to happen just before Christmas? Well, it's because somebody was going to ask Santa to end the world that year.
I'm surprised that you knew about our time machine, but not about the fact that we went back in time and prevented this person from ever being born. For now the end of the world has been postponed. Recently there's been some chatter in the scientific community about some kid who might ask toothfairy to end the world in May 2013. Fear not, we're going to deal with this asshole. We just need more unicorn blood to power our time machine.. "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Jan 19, 2009 16:27
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By the way this is a great quote:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
—Stephen F. Roberts
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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gutter
Inactive User
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Posted : Jan 19, 2009 16:38
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so religious people cannot accept that the hole universe is consist by "order in chaos" or "chaos in order" and still want an invisible or beard force/granpa to rule everything and to be his/her followers so that they are somehow "under the mighty god's shield"
that reminds me of a person having a bad trip following the paths of insanity and thats probably caused by his/her denial to accept the chaos, the individuality and at the same time the union of all things,, but hey the ego has come back asking for control things, that really cannot be controlled.
theres a flow in the life of universe and religions have caused a lot of "pauses" and huge backward "breaks" in that flow and in our evolution as human beings
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Gopendragon
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Posted : Jan 21, 2009 20:51
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@traveller
do u believe that the ende of the world will come on 2012 or 2013?
I dont think so,we dont even be sure if 2012 is the date that mayan callendar wrotes,the mayan callendar have a code,a numerogical system,and nothing can be for sure that 2012 that it is 2012,becaus maybe those scientists who do mathematics found wrong date,and 2012 is 2013,or 2014 or...
But there is one thing for sure that soon or later,at the real date of 2012 a big change will happen,and this change is gonna happen to help humanity lift the spirit up and and higher,a chance for those who dont belive,to see ,ear and feel something more more clear..
like a warning for the future.
~~~~~~~namaskar~~~~~~~~~
After the End,a new Begining startS.. |
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rich
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Posted : Jan 22, 2009 03:06
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On 2009-01-19 16:38, gutter wrote:
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theres a flow in the life of universe and religions have caused a lot of "pauses" and huge backward "breaks" in that flow and in our evolution as human beings
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That is a contradiction, if you consider that religion is human being's invention.
So part of his evolution must be to form religions and do things in the name of it that cause these 'breaks' and 'pauses'. Right? Unless you mean 'god gave man religion and that screwed him up cos he would be fine evolving on his own otherwise'. Which I don't think you mean.
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Login
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Posted : Jan 22, 2009 09:08
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religion is different than to follow an spiritual believe?
Now for a second, if humans create technology, and also theology dont you think is part of human nature to believe in something beyond the physical world???
I remember a lot how on "brave new world" the character starts going crazy for the lack of passion, or hard emotions on that world.
Humans are imperfect, trying to be too rational just dont fit in them, that little part that is no rational is god himself.
"The dedication to repetition — the search for nirvana in a single held tone or an endlessly cycling rhythm — is one of electronic music's noblest gestures." |
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gutter
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Posted : Jan 22, 2009 14:34
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im just wondering why do we have to be attached on some specific religion and the worst of all, why does the religion have so much power, money and influence to the people.this type of religion is somehow identical with politics if not the same.
i respect a lot wise people and try to listen to someone i consider his/her speech wise and educational no matter if is a religious or atheist
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subjective i would say no, but it is different, religion like christianity have caused million of deaths for hundreds of years, nothing to do with people believe in Santeria or other native religions
i really cannot compare the influence between them, but "the big" religions became a way to manipulate and fear the crowd than enlight and reveal.
humans are indeed imperfect, probably im first on that list,, but the ones who rule religions are much much worse than imperfect people, i could say lots of them are really murderers (without blood in the hands, of course)
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| that little part that is no rational is god himself.
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i like that a lot. thanx login
it reminds me of that phrase saying that , life is not counted by the times we breathe but by the times we have no breath inside us. i cannot remember well but you can understand it 
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