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Ableton VS Logic summing quality THE unexpected
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PsyGalaXy
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
68
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437
Posted : May 27, 2015 05:29:23
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Hello pals, hope you are doing good
So this weekend i had a opening gig for a label party, then seeing behing the consolle
i saw one of the main artists( sorry guys NO NAMES NO MAMES) who also do mastering for he own live project nd for the label VAs and releases as well
WAS PERFORMING WITH LOGIC (!) and also other artist with cubase sx
Lately i asked why the use of logic instead of ableton and was told "absolutely no game in the audio output quality between logc and ableton"
Honestly I never tought about using logic to perform live because the layout of my set is quite complicated to replicate in logic and i use a lot of realtime clips and warp etc.
I also find abbie less bitchy when running not too much Vsts (no annoying "system overload")
This "output quality difference" sounds
soooooo 2005 to me so far
i remember the good old days when the summing engines 48bit fixed points of protools were beating the old cubases and the differences were audible summing up tp 40 tracks or so
and honestly
TODAY PLAYING THE SAME AUDIOFILE thru Logic 9 and Ableton 9 has no differences to my ears
(but now i'm just with headphones)
  http://mystic-sound.com/releases/ioon-cosmic-downtempo-9314-oclock/
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https://soundcloud.com/opalmoonproj |
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splikz
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
287
Posted : May 27, 2015 08:57
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did you notice any significant differences in that gig, comparing to other artists?
a couple ableton versions ago, I had the impression that the sample preview in the left sidebar browser sounded better than in the actual arrangement/session view.
and unwarped mp3 files at 0db were clipping while on "High Quality". I'm not sure if it was a ableton problem with oversampling and aliasing, or if my soundcard and audio settings were the reason why ableton did that.
the eternal daw discussion. |
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psychotic_neuroscientist
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
35
Posts :
422
Posted : May 27, 2015 13:50
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i have been working with ableton live 9 lately after working on Logic Pro 9 for a few years...and i really do feel there is a lot of difference in sound quality eg..the same Kicks sound punchier, the bass in Sylenth sounds better in Logic...
One of the main advantages IMO that Ableton has over Logic is that it accepts AUs and VSTs...If only that was the case with Logic ... 
Second is the session view clip triggering GUI...
No... no more scientists, no more laboratories, no more experiments, I thought you`d be able to understand that. No more! |
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Xsze
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
657
Posted : May 27, 2015 14:20
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I heard before there was some issues with some of Live's plugins and warp engine, don't know if that got resolved tho
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moleqlarsuperstructure
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
36
Posts :
265
Posted : May 28, 2015 12:20
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ts a common known thing that ableton is developed that way, it really has lower Quality performance especially on the ableton build in plugins but THAT is meant to have a stable program for live performance instead of using all the high-tech gear and making you laptop smoke up in front of the audience (while standing on the stage at 40° at boom or ozora)
BUT i tried it as well to make full live performance on ableton. but also psy is simply not the music to be played live. the magic happens definitely in the studio nowadays. using any usual sequencer for live is the way to go today.
also a curse of us producers. cause most people don't care and don't hear the difference in quality
im using logic for my backing tracks as well... but cause i use logic to produce and love the way i can use it. then i have also ableton as "sampler" there i fill up my backings with the leads or some cymbals or 303 stuff what ever
also i heard logic was the basic engine for ableton? anyone?
http://soundcloud.com/neonjade |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : May 28, 2015 15:00
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Ajja told me in Brazil that he also finds mixing tracks in Logic sounds better than Ableton and although he uses Ableton to make his sounds, he is doing his mixing in Logic Pro now.
I don't use Ableton so I can't comment.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : May 28, 2015 16:23
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I was under the impression of it just being the different pan laws (logic lets you change this, while Ableton doesn't), and perhaps people having the "auto fades" thing turned on on Ableton, and warp engaged by default on all audio files. But then, even considering all this, if your track counts get big, then you'll be able to tell a difference. Everything just seems to sound a lot clearer. It could be some placebo thing, though, as for instance, maybe just 'cause I'm more used to it, but I seem to be abel to tell the differences in volume (just slight adjustments in the mixer's faders, I mean) much better in Logic then on Ableton, specially when we're talking about a complex, multi layered mix.
But would really like to know if there's anything under the hood, besides the obvious difference in pan law, to support this. |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : May 28, 2015 18:54
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I have no idea, I just thought they all sounded the same, but Ajja is not the first artist to say he is switching to Logic/Cubase, to do the final mix.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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ThiagoNAKA
IsraTrance Full Member
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104
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1047
Posted : May 30, 2015 00:21
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I´ve made a complete cancellation with 2 samples (from Cubase SX3 and Ableton Live 5) few years ago.
So, I guess that the render engine is the same.
What makes a HUGE difference is the Warp. It was always THE function of Live, so ppl use it a lot. The result, for me, is very granular results, wich tends to sound not so "fat" and "glued".
In addition I can say that from that era, Cubase´s native plugins was far better than Live´s.
LOADING... |
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splikz
Started Topics :
1
Posts :
287
Posted : May 30, 2015 00:23
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just a note, I checked andi vax youtube channel. and apparently he changed from cubase into reaper, for a year now. very unexpected.
he made a video about the pros and cons of his new daw. but he dint explain why he switched.
I would like to know his opinion, since he's a producer and mastering engineer. |
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Xsze
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
657
Posted : May 30, 2015 03:22
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Quote:
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On 2015-05-30 00:23, splikz wrote:
just a note, I checked andi vax youtube channel. and apparently he changed from cubase into reaper, for a year now. very unexpected.
he made a video about the pros and cons of his new daw. but he dint explain why he switched.
I would like to know his opinion, since he's a producer and mastering engineer.
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Ask him about it, I think he will respond to that. 
But I think the video is his reasons, I watched it too, I'm on Reaper too, why, it's stable, it does some things faster, it's most lightweight thing around (check this http://www.dawbench.com ), can be customized to your own liking and workflow, bugs are fixed fast, cost 60 bucks for two versions.
Sure it looks ugly and you will freak out fast because it have his own default ways, but once you actually give him a shot and do him to your own thing, it becomes just that, your ideal DAW that does things you want (of course, if some of the things are what you want), it's crazy fast once you get going and folks that are into linear audio/recording see his true value/benefit of it over many DAW's around. |
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wirakocha
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
112
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288
Posted : Jun 17, 2015 22:14
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knocz
Moderator
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1151
Posted : Jun 18, 2015 17:53
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Wouldn't this be easily sorted out by taking two audio samples, load them up on logic and ableton, summing them at different stages (so, -20fb.. -10 db.. -5db.. 0db.. 5db..), exporting this without any dithering, and then invert the pase and play them both at the exact same time? If they are transparent, then no signal should come through.. if something does come though, then they do perform this in different ways (but I wouldn't expect more than a float point sum of the signals ), then "best quality" is always susceptible to the listener 
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jun 19, 2015 17:24
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One would think so, but no. If you do that they will null each other. But the differences, if they exist, only become apparent when handling large track numbers.
For instance, Studio One 3 now has 64 bit (double precision) engine, and they clearly state there (on their website) that this helps when handling projects with huge track numbers, 'cause it prevents it from degrading the signal. I really can't say if this is true or not, as, like most, I only have some (fairly basic) understanding of what's under the hood when it comes to such stuff.
From my experience, I do think it's easier to make a good sounding mix on Logic then with Ableton, but I've always thought this is more down to the ergonomics and work flow, and the feedback provided by the software, rather then some under the hood technical thing concerning sound quality - and maybe this is the case with most people. Can't be sure.
But would like to know more about this. I thought that the main advantage of the 32 bit floating point engines was to have almost infinite internal headroom.
But this new 64 bit thing seems to imply some more. Or maybe it's just marketing rubbish? |
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monno
Grapes Of Wrath
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
454
Posted : Jun 20, 2015 23:18
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Null tests are next to useless in a mix scenario.
It makes sense for something nitpicky like testing converters and the like. Making full mix comparisons is by the nature of the game almost impossible, although doable if the "rules" are set up properly. A great mix has VERY little to do with what audio engine and other such nonsensical details are used by the program and everything to to with things about 40-60cm from the screen.
Music that is by many considered classic these days was produced with considerably less able tools and yet a lot of it still sounds fantastic to this day, so i know software is not the weak link.
Computers can only react to the input they are given from the outside world, it´s not the software making mix decisions.
An easy and time tested way of being rid of such considerations on the technical side, once and for all, would be summing in the analog domain.
Easier said than done these days, when a studio to most people is a laptop and some dinky speakers. Having access to a decent mix environment in terms of acoustics and speakers is more the road to go down, if improvement is sought.
Whatever DAW one chooses should be solely based on personal preference/workflow and not on silly little things. Who cares if it sounds "better" if it takes you ages to do anything in it.
Protools managed to hang on to an antiquated fixed point engine for ages before jumping on the float bandwagon (essential if you want to have an easy time with native apps) In spite of this quite "obvious" shortcoming compared to other DAW´s at the time it won out on other parameters. Always having access to a guaranteed number of tracks, regardless of native computer power among others. I hate it with a vengeance, but it is to date the most responsive DAW i have worked with in a mix capacity.
Mastering available here:
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