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Widening perceived dimension - width & *height*
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Insomania
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
6
Posted : May 31, 2015 22:21:01
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Hello guys,
When referencing my tracks with professional masters, I notice that my track may seem as wide, but almost never as "tall". it sounds squashed (partly thanks to overusing the limiter I guess) and the perceived height is considerably shorter.
I know that the high frequencies carry the sound higher in the head, while the low do the opposite, but are there any additional tools/parameters that need be tweaked to achieve a high image?
Thanks!
P.S. this is my username registered ages ago - I wanted to re-register with my updated artist name and info but seems like registration is not working.
Links to faq/stats and some other stuff are not working as well.
How can mods/admins be contacted? |
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wirakocha
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
112
Posts :
288
Posted : Jun 1, 2015 00:07
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Xsze
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
657
Posted : Jun 1, 2015 06:50
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Insomania
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
6
Posted : Jun 3, 2015 14:47
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Thanks for the tips/links - I will see what I can extract from them. |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jun 3, 2015 17:06
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You know, you've said it yourself: maybe you're abusing the limiter. That does have a detrimental effect on the sound of your mix: takes away the impact, 'cause there's no dynamics. The dimension you're missing, trust me, starts with good control of the relative dynamics between the sounds.
So if I were you, I'd remove the limiter and work on the dynamics of your mix first. Work on the relative volumes, make sure you can listen to every sound clearly, but that it's not to loud or to soft for it's intended effect on the mix/song.
Doing something wrong then engaging in further processing to cope with the harm produced by such processing is wrong in principle. Like you're chasing your own tail, so to speak. Good mixes start with getting the basics right m8. Cheers |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jun 3, 2015 17:27
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Quote:
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On 2015-06-01 00:07, wirakocha wrote:
if you split your sound with the ableton utility one in %0 mono another in 200% stereo + 10db group it in the stereo signal you can add a reverb,saturator,sidechain you can make the sound bigger,heavy pumping...
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there's no universal fixes for problematic mixes. if I was to do that in the track I'm currently working on, it would sound horrible. 200% for the entire mix is probably wrong for ALL mixes. those settings are best reserved for individual elements, unique events, that sort of thing. |
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wirakocha
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
112
Posts :
288
Posted : Jun 3, 2015 23:26
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Insomania
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
6
Posted : Jun 4, 2015 00:29
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Quote:
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On 2015-06-03 17:06, frisbeehead wrote:
You know, you've said it yourself: maybe you're abusing the limiter. That does have a detrimental effect on the sound of your mix: takes away the impact, 'cause there's no dynamics. The dimension you're missing, trust me, starts with good control of the relative dynamics between the sounds.
So if I were you, I'd remove the limiter and work on the dynamics of your mix first. Work on the relative volumes, make sure you can listen to every sound clearly, but that it's not to loud or to soft for it's intended effect on the mix/song.
Doing something wrong then engaging in further processing to cope with the harm produced by such processing is wrong in principle. Like you're chasing your own tail, so to speak. Good mixes start with getting the basics right m8. Cheers
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Great point frisbeehead, I will abuse the limiter carefu.ly XD. No seriously, I got my acoustician to listen to my mixes - he told me my mixes sound not clear enough, and it's not because my acoustics are very basic - but rather because of my own head... So true, I appreciate his frank remark - and your s too guys.
I resolved to my homework and make my current track sound much much better. Right now already sounding much better after I removed unnecessary hum from the kick and added some reverb to certain freqs of the bass.
It sounds to be promising, hope I'm not being too subjective LOL
cheers mates! |
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
204
Posted : Jun 4, 2015 13:44
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Not sure the Limiter is the main culprit. You're talking about height - the limiter, when squashing dynamics, would influence the depth. Panning / Stereo reverb would influence the width - and the Height is controlled with EQ and overall balance of frequencies.. difficult to say without a preview of your track what you mean.
If the guy said it's not clear enough - then it sounds like you may be cutting too much high end,, or,, have too much low end, tilting the overall balance to the bass side.
Not clear can also mean muddy - 200-800hz area.
If you want to go taller, then take the track elements too the lowest low and the highest high. Kick to 30hz - Hihats to 20khz. MP3's will also loose some height due to the high end being sacrificed.
 " We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jun 4, 2015 15:53
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^you'd tend to think like that, but an over compressed mix will just sound like a lifeless muddy wall of sound, lacking any real clarity, contrast or impact - the very features associated with a nice sounding mix.
it's not all, just a part of it. like with most things, it's better to think of it beforehand. meaning: if you have some idea of where you want to place your sounds in a three dimensional space when you're composing/arranging, like a clear distinction between sounds in the front and the background, you will effortlessly get the depth. reverb is just one way of doing it, and definitely worth taking a DEEP look at, 'cause excess of it can also be very detrimental to the mix. the spectral balance in any given sound also has an impact on the perceived depth: darker sounds will sound further removed from you, while brighter sounds will tend to sound more upfront. the same goes with volume.
if everything sounds close to full volume, how can there be a three dimensional effect in the mix?
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
204
Posted : Jun 4, 2015 17:03
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Quote:
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On 2015-06-04 15:53, frisbeehead wrote:
darker sounds will sound further removed from you, while brighter sounds will tend to sound more upfront. the same goes with volume.
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I assume with darker sounds you mean more low/mid low end and brighter more high end.
I cannot see where depth factors in this. Low frequencies is below and high frequencies is above. You say its further removed from you ???
Volume and reverb creates depth not frequency balance. Brighter sounds is more upfront because the harmonics is more audible and darker sounds is less audible - again because it has less harmonics, but I disagree that it's further away from you.
Yes an over-compressed mix is going to be lifeless cause everything is upfront due to the lack of dynamics, but still we need to take into account that a proper balance can only be achieved by lowering the dynamics.
then again are we talking about the overall dynamics of the entire mix as it moves through time, or the dynamics between the instruments playing at the same time, or the dynamics of individual instrument notes as it plays.
" We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jun 4, 2015 19:54
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Darker sounds I just mean less higher content/harmonics, yes. It's about the psycho acoustics, it's true that our ears are not linear, right? Munson curve comes to mind. And it's also a known fact that less higher content tends to make sounds blend more inside the mix, instead of reaching out and calling your attention - just another way of saying up front.
So, if you ask me, spectrum balance has it's place to play in the depth department. It's just not as blatantly obvious as using reverb, but still should be taken into consideration.
Just as an example to illustrate my point: if a Bass Drum only has low end to it, no matter how good it sounds on its own, it easily gets lost in the mix. That's why it's common practice to blend some higher frequencies to it, specially for it's attack, so it's doesn't get lost inside the mix. Higher content, in such situations, is similar to "presence", which is a concept very similar to proximity. Also, just think about the effect that filter sweeps have, what it makes you feel on the dance floor, and it's pretty much the same thing. So yeah, I do believe spectral/frequency balance affects our perception of depth. Many times coupled with reverb and volume to make it even more prominent and effective as such. Hope this made the point clearer now.
Lowering dynamics is necessary, of course. But not to be thought of as just slamming a limiter on the master bus and squashing the living hell out of everything. The relative volumes is where it's at. If you listen to it with low volume, you can easily spot when something is to loud or to soft, and you have to work on it accordingly. For each track!
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
204
Posted : Jun 5, 2015 11:33
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Quote:
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On 2015-06-04 19:54, frisbeehead wrote:
Just as an example to illustrate my point: if a Bass Drum only has low end to it, no matter how good it sounds on its own, it easily gets lost in the mix. That's why it's common practice to blend some higher frequencies to it, specially for it's attack, so it's doesn't get lost inside the mix. Higher content, in such situations, is similar to "presence", which is a concept very similar to proximity. Also, just think about the effect that filter sweeps have, what it makes you feel on the dance floor, and it's pretty much the same thing. So yeah, I do believe spectral/frequency balance affects our perception of depth. Many times coupled with reverb and volume to make it even more prominent and effective as such. Hope this made the point clearer now.
Lowering dynamics is necessary, of course. But not to be thought of as just slamming a limiter on the master bus and squashing the living hell out of everything. The relative volumes is where it's at. If you listen to it with low volume, you can easily spot when something is to loud or to soft, and you have to work on it accordingly. For each track!
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I think we are talking about the same thing here, only difference is what we call it. You saying it gets lost or presence is my way of saying its more/less audible. It's more like a perceived depth - like you said, with the filter sweep, because it can be less audible but still have the volume level to be upfront - I agree that without the presence, the kick does seem to vanish between the elements.
So the depth we were referring to was not the same. I am talking about the depth created with different db levels. Again like I said about the dynamics - is it the depth of the mix, or the instruments. There are so many ways to see a certain concepts in music production that usually it gets misunderstood in debates like this.
Like you said "Relative volumes is where it's at" ... the balance. ;-)
Yes - mixing @ low volumes is best to clearly hear if the kick, etc, requires more presence or imo, needs to be more audible - to punch through and be heard.
" We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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Grevinsky
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
75
Posts :
685
Posted : Jun 8, 2015 12:02
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Hey.
I havent read all posts here(cause of lazyness) so maybe someone has covered this.
First of all its important to realize the stereo field actually is and look at it in a more holistic sense. Try to use the WHOLE spectrum to give more space in your mix, There is great possibillitys in the use of the stereo field and for me it took many years to realize how to utilize it.
Every 7degree in the stereo field, we can distinguish sounds as they come from a particulare source. So changing just a few L or R wont make any difference.
So when you plan your panning, make use of that concept its very useful. I try to pan/use stereo widening effects in the whole stereo spectra, for a wider feel and more place in the mix.
One tool i use alot(or an effect more), is the hass effect.
In few words, its using very low time differances of two channels of a stereo delay which gives rise to an illusion of a very wide space.
Pan the two channels against each other and then you have a very simple but good tool to spread the sound uniformly to which part of the field you want.
The advantage with using the hass effect from simple panning is that you get it uniformly,
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http://soundcloud.com/mechanical_species |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Jun 8, 2015 23:52
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By depth I meant the actual perception of distance within a mix. Some things sound closer to you, while others sound more distant.
I know it may sound weird, saying that the balance of each sound, by itself, can have an impact on this "axis". Of course we're talking about our perception here, it certainly involves our brains, 'cause this distance is only apparent in real terms.
But let's add a bit more fuel to this: think of the doppler effect. You need to change the spectral content of a given sound in order to create a convincing or realistic sense that it's moving towards you, then passes through you and moves away, for example. You can't possibly do it just using volume and reverb - which are things that need to be there if you're doing it on your own with automation, but pitch shifting needs to be there as well, and some filtering also helps - due to the compression of air waves due to motion and other fairly esoteric stuff. This may seem like an extreme example, but just goes to show: don't dismiss the fact that the harmonic content of a sound, it's frequency/spectral balance has an impact (can be more or less, depending on situations and its context, meaning other sounds it shares a relationship with) on our perception of depth - as in distance.
Because if, for example, you admit that a Kick without some higher content does tend to blend in the mix more; then it just takes another sound that sounds more up front for the kick to feel/be perceived as more distant then this other closer sound or sounds. Again, it's not as obvious as with reverb and volume, but it's also something to have in mind - and not just to avoid a kick getting lost in the mix.
Take a look at one of your songs, and how much higher the low parts need to be compared to the highs. Why is that? Human ears are more sensible to some frequencies then others, yes, but for a good reason. Babies cry in a higher register, ambulances don't go around making KBBB noises, in a storm what do you get to listen to first? And what's the correlation of that with distance? Time it takes for some frequencies to travel through the air and reach you, whilst others take more time (and energy) to do so?
EDIT
not saying the actual speed of sound changes with frequency, just addressing our own subjective perceptions of events to illustrate how we can shape our own illusions of such things in music 
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