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What is music

nionn

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  17
Posted : Feb 2, 2015 18:21
Roadworks and traffic outside...now the dumper truck solo as it dopplers from right to left, each cycle of the Diesel engine resonating through refined iron that's been shaped by countless hands...ballet interrupted by a double-decker bus eased slowly in the opposite direction - creating a third element unique to each listener of the overlapping sonic ripples - why should this be considered less of a musical performance than a symphony orchestra? I mean apart from less of a catchy tune to whistle - isn't it just how we choose to experience the shifting moments?

Or to say that music is about order and hence needs a composer to shape chaos denies the wonder of our fractal mathematic cosmos - with spontaneous marvels of breaking waves, throbbing pulsars and wind whistling through trees - let alone call & responding birds or joyful dolphin riffs. There is form and beauty all around us that we had no role in creating apart from as essential active listeners.
Mathura
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :  16
Posts :  91
Posted : Feb 2, 2015 19:42
Excuse me

Well, the frequences of cosmic / universal / earth floating are defined somehow or other,
in other words the whole frequence-spectrum of life is defined, maybe in categories which are related to each other...

They are defined to make the thing of life work... And for that reason to get resonace the mind need body... And it works...

And of course its all "a big composition" of "the whole mind in realation with each other"...

Echo (sound), light, also like minerals, water, the organs of a human and so on and on and on and on and on...

So, it looks like that a kind of "definition" is needed to be in "cosmic harmony", to make a life-function...

So the session can get started...

All individuals with bodys are now able to participate and attend at the organization of the "cosmic session"...

Its a very big "live-session of life"... A kind of "music"...

But if the question should be, what is music, then we could look only to the frequence-spectrum of echo and the actions of humans...

- And there we find, that "music" can be writen down on notepaper or a "DAW" to "save" it as something available for everybody...
This is maybe the most defined "music"

(And of course this could be saved in mind, but its not so fast available for everybody)

- And we have the pure "music-session" , only recordable by the players and listeners ears or an "audio file"...

And also in the "music-session" there is something "defined", so the people are able to "play with each other and together"...
Their modules have to be geared to each other, their minds want to create an ambience...
Than they can record their "music-session", and it becomes their "music"...

But if all make their own sound without the purpose to play together
and the only connection between them is "only" the cosmic-frequence-foundation
and the sound of it is layered by sounds of the cosmic foundation (wind, wave etc.)

maybe its only the musical sound the whole floating session, its maybe the (musical) sound of a civilization...

Its maybe the sound of life...




Colin OOOD
Moderator

Started Topics :  95
Posts :  5380
Posted : Feb 3, 2015 21:06
You misunderstand my point, nionn.

Quote:
Roadworks and traffic outside...now the dumper truck solo as it dopplers from right to left, each cycle of the Diesel engine resonating through refined iron that's been shaped by countless hands...ballet interrupted by a double-decker bus eased slowly in the opposite direction - creating a third element unique to each listener of the overlapping sonic ripples - why should this be considered less of a musical performance than a symphony orchestra?


If those roadworks and traffic and dumper trucks and engines and buses were being operated by people with the intention that the sound they made together was intended to be listened to as a piece of music, then it would be "a musical performance". Without that intention, it's a chaotic city-scape that is musical, but not music, even though the sounds might be identical in each case. The use of the word 'performance' or 'performer' necessarily implies that there is human interaction of some kind with the intention of shaping that collection of sounds (in this case) into something greater than its component parts - the added "something greater" being the fact that a human being has identified those component parts as being worthy of attention in some way when put together in that specific arrangement.

Quote:
There is form and beauty all around us that we had no role in creating apart from as essential active listeners.


Like all other meaning in the world, beauty is a human-created value, and without a human observer placing the label 'beautiful' on something, there is only form. In this sense, we create all things of beauty through our decisions to label them as such. It is not necessary to place everything 'musical' into the category of 'music' in order to enjoy it. All music is necessarily sound (even 4'33", in which the audience is directed to listen to the sounds in the auditorium that would normally be obscured by the performance), but not all sound is necessarily music.

IMO.
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nionn

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  17
Posted : Feb 4, 2015 15:39
Quote:

even though the sounds might be identical in each case



So it's agreed that the distinction between music and non-musical sound is a subjective one rather than an objective category?
No, because the decision to drive the digger and trucks etc. with the intention of having the resulting sounds perceived as music can be objectively documented.
nionn

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  17
Posted : Feb 4, 2015 15:51
- about the imaginary street performance for double-decker bus, digger truck....

John Cage responded with this quote:
"Which is more musical, a truck passing by a factory or a truck passing by a music school?
Are the people inside the school musical and the ones outside unmusical?"

- which questions the premise that the perspective of the listener should have much bearing about whether the thing is labelled as music or not. I think conceptually for me the boundary is much smudgier and kinetic between music and noise than it used to be. Does the adjective musical imply that there's a sort of shaded half and half region that borders the category music for lots of people? I think for me the boundary is sort of permeable - and I enjoy the shift into experiencing my sonic world with the frame of mind that I place around the experience of listening to music which I more traditionally associate with a loudspeaker or acoustic instrument and performer
nionn

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  17
Posted : Feb 4, 2015 15:58
They say, "you mean it's just sounds?" thinking that for something to just be a sound is to be useless, whereas I love sounds just as they are, and I have no need for them to be anything more than what they are. I don't want them to be psychological. I don't want a sound to pretend that it's a bucket or that it's president or that it's in love with another sound. I just want it to be a sound."

hmm - seems like Cage perceived music and noise as separate things:
""Wherever we are, what we hear is mostly noise. When we ignore it, it disturbs us. When we listen to it, we find it fascinating."

I guess I'm suggesting that when "we listen to it" the boundary between noise and music silently dissolves.
nionn

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  17
Posted : Feb 4, 2015 16:09
I'm really fascinated by the idea of music without musicians - even on a basic level of dancers in a 3d motion rig generating midi data to make a soundtrack for it all. But ways of facilitating the natural world to become more audible too...like using the same motion capture idea to translate a tree in a breeze into a syneasthesia experience of bouncing branches of a bassline
nionn

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  17
Posted : Feb 4, 2015 20:37
Woah I wasn't expecting my post to have been deleted and then edited by mr Oood. Soz for cluttering up the place. Peace out.
Xsze


Started Topics :  5
Posts :  657
Posted : Feb 4, 2015 21:00
Colin don't have anything better to do with his life than edit your monologues, you have edit button that last for 30 minutes, not clutter half page in 10 minutes span.
nionn

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  17
Posted : Feb 5, 2015 11:48
Quote:

No, because the decision to drive the digger and trucks etc. with the intention of having the resulting sounds perceived as music can be objectively documented.



^I didn't write this. Original text was deleted. Only a few lines and nothing offensive.
nionn

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  17
Posted : Feb 5, 2015 11:52
Old text was:(I was just thinking this morning that perhaps music is broader than just sound - perhaps it's more to do with movement...Evelyn Glennie is a world class concert percussionist and profoundly deaf - she gets feedback about her impacts from how different areas of the snare drum blow air differently against her face, or how the kettle drums feel through her feet. Or how about synaesthesia? It's possible for people to experience the sensation of sound from silent movement - hinting that for all of us the senses are not neatly separate abilities - music and movement are so linked in dance too)

Quote:

even though the sounds might be identical in each case


So it's agreed that the distinction between music and non-musical sound is a subjective one rather than an objective category? I guess I'm suggesting that the shift is on the part of the listener to experience the sound as music rather than the intent being with the performer about whether they're creating music. Both perspectives seem troubling tho - in terms of what if the truck driver was convinced they were making music but the bus driver was just driving - I mean then there's almost like a Schroedinger thing of the sound being both music and noise according to the role of the performers. Or what if a listener dismisses it all as noise does it suddenly cease to be music? - maybe more like the role of the quantum observer on the state of the phenomenon? I'm a bit out of my depth to have a point here - but something about how we choose to label the experience...

Quote:
In this sense, we create all things of beauty through our decisions to label them as such.


- which possibly resonates with this point^ that music (or beauty) is a arbitrary subjective labelling on the part of the listener/performer - except with beauty it's something just the viewer decides on?
Colin OOOD
Moderator

Started Topics :  95
Posts :  5380
Posted : Feb 8, 2015 21:16
Shit really sorry... as a moderator in this section I get an additional option to edit posts, and the button for it is right next to the 'quote' button, I must have pressed it by mistake when I was replying to your post. It wasn't deliberate and yes, I have plenty of other things to do than to go round deliberately messing with people's text! Apologies again, it was very clumsy of me. Thanks for reposting your original reply.
          Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net
moki
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  38
Posts :  1931
Posted : Feb 8, 2015 22:03
Quote:

On 2015-02-04 16:09, nionn wrote:
I'm really fascinated by the idea of music without musicians - even on a basic level of dancers in a 3d motion rig generating midi data to make a soundtrack for it all. But ways of facilitating the natural world to become more audible too...like using the same motion capture idea to translate a tree in a breeze into a syneasthesia experience of bouncing branches of a bassline



If science has so far found a way to "perceive" radio emission from galaxies, pulsars, quasars, it is probably not very difficult to make any quark and any matter in the known universe audible too. But what would be the goal of making the world audible without a musician, what would we hear then? It would be order, probably even mangificently beautiful order, harmonic spheres that follow every known algorithm and every known theorem at once. Yes, it will be beautiful to hear cosmic harmony without a "musician", exactly like science reveals harmony and order without taking an architect into consideration - but what would this infinite order mean to us then? Would we understand the world better if there were no musicians to make the world audible, or would we happen to become more advanced species, or would it just make our lives better in any way?

What is it that fascinates you about it exactly?
moki
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  38
Posts :  1931
Posted : Feb 10, 2015 14:45
To make it short:







For example, if you could watch Kenji Williams with his audiovisual performance Bella Gaia, that combines NASA satellite imagery of Earth, nature photography and live performances of music and dance, would you prefer sound which is auto processed from the patterns of the Nasa imagery without a musician? And if humans prefer music without musicians, just based on science, maths and algorithms, wouldn't this mean that we have nothing to tell each other as a society any more?

http://www.bellagaia.com/about.html
moki
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  38
Posts :  1931
Posted : Feb 13, 2015 13:26
@nionn, are you now not speaking any more because Colin OOOD "restructured" your text by mistake?
Pity, I hoped I finally found at least one person in isratrance who knows why I love creating music using maths and letting the macro- and microcosmos speak for itself .
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