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The Mother of all SOUNDCARDS thread
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 25, 2009 20:55
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I been checking that card aswell, but the fact that it dosent have a volume knob made the decision easy for me, im not getting it..
I have my eyes set on M-audio Profire 610
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mquirk1
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 26, 2009 04:16
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On 2009-11-25 11:15, MeditationProfonde wrote:
Thank you for your answer ! So a better soundcard provides a better sound in output. But, is there a différence between sounds produced with the same cubase project and different soundcards ? I would like to understand this point.
I don't have firewire, could you advise me a good USB soundcard around 100 euros (Yes finally i changed my budget) ?
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no, the soundcard doesn't affect the quality of sounds produced from within the computer. most of what you are paying for when you get a more expensive soundcard is better quality converters and preamps. the converters are
a/d - analogue to digital, they handle converting an analogue signal that you record into the soundcard from say a synth, into a digital form in the project.
d/a - digital to analogue, they handle re-converting the digital data produced in the cubase project into analogue before it is sent to the speakers.
the converters do not effect the quality of the sound at all within cubase.. as in when you are mixing down a project, doesn't matter if you use a $200 or $2000 dollar soundcard, the quality of the file you mix down will be exactly the same if you are just producing with vsts for example. however if you have a better soundcard it will sound better on YOUR computer due to better d/a. so the reason a good soundcard is useful is:
a) if you are recording synths or whatever, and then if you have better a/d the recording quality will be better.
b) better d/a leads to a clearer/better sound when listening through your monitors and makes it easier to make mix decisions.
but yeah, just getting a better soundcard will not instantly make your mixes sound 10 times better if you are just working with vsts. it will just make it easier for your to hear what you're doing and mix better, like upgrading your monitors.
aren't very familiar with usb soundcards so can't offer any advice there |
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MeditationProfonde
IsraTrance Junior Member
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131
Posted : Nov 26, 2009 09:23
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Thank you alot mquirk1 ! I wanted so much to understand that.
I use vsti only but i think the sound of my portable computer is quite bad, a 100/150 euros USB soundcard could be good i think.
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Pointless
Inactive User
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0
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49
Posted : Nov 29, 2009 15:52
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Quote:
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On 2009-11-26 04:16, mquirk1 wrote:
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On 2009-11-25 11:15, MeditationProfonde wrote:
Thank you for your answer ! So a better soundcard provides a better sound in output. But, is there a différence between sounds produced with the same cubase project and different soundcards ? I would like to understand this point.
I don't have firewire, could you advise me a good USB soundcard around 100 euros (Yes finally i changed my budget) ?
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no, the soundcard doesn't affect the quality of sounds produced from within the computer. most of what you are paying for when you get a more expensive soundcard is better quality converters and preamps. the converters are
a/d - analogue to digital, they handle converting an analogue signal that you record into the soundcard from say a synth, into a digital form in the project.
d/a - digital to analogue, they handle re-converting the digital data produced in the cubase project into analogue before it is sent to the speakers.
the converters do not effect the quality of the sound at all within cubase.. as in when you are mixing down a project, doesn't matter if you use a $200 or $2000 dollar soundcard, the quality of the file you mix down will be exactly the same if you are just producing with vsts for example.
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Sorry but this really misleading.
your monitor chain is important ( room - monitors - DAC )
When mixing or tacking or designing sounds you make decisions on what you hear. The better you can ear what is going on the easier it is. To hear your VST's you still have to go through a converter. They vary in quality. All the decisions you make will be made on what you can or can not hear. The DAC will influence that. It is that simple.
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mquirk1
IsraTrance Full Member
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384
Posted : Nov 30, 2009 05:06
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^
pretty sure i wrote exactly that right after what you quoted
"b) better d/a leads to a clearer/better sound when listening through your monitors and makes it easier to make mix decisions.
but yeah, just getting a better soundcard will not instantly make your mixes sound 10 times better if you are just working with vsts. it will just make it easier for your to hear what you're doing and mix better, like upgrading your monitors."
so how is what i wrote misleading?
if you produce/mix a project completely on some uber soundcard and monitors, then transfer that project to a different computer with a way crappy soundcard and mix it down/bounce the audio it will sound EXACTLY the same as if you mixed it down with the uber interface, that was my point and what MeditationProfonde was asking about.. |
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Pointless
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Posted : Nov 30, 2009 10:33
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It won't sound exactly the same though. That's the point. |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 30, 2009 17:07
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Inside the computer it sounds the same
Now grasp that one! haha easy as 101010101010 10101 1010101 1010101 10101 101010 0101 01 0101
This shit sounds good!
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Google
Inactive User
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0
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26
Posted : Nov 30, 2009 17:24
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Quote:
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On 2009-11-30 17:07, Freeflow wrote:
Inside the computer it sounds the same
Now grasp that one! haha easy as 101010101010 10101 1010101 1010101 10101 101010 0101 01 0101
This shit sounds good!
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Every single decision you make during mixing is dependent on what you can or can not hear. Your tool for this is your "monitoring chain"
The most important part of this is your room, then your speakers and finally your DAC. No system is 100% transparent.
Now lets just have an example. Lets say your monitoring chain is only 20% transparent. EVERYTHING you do is based on what you can hear. In this case only 20%. Now lets say you take that same song and use a system that is 70% transparent. Do you think you will be able to make a better mix?
Yes you will 
all those 1010000100010010 in the box do not get perceived as 1010100001010 by us. They have to get converted first, and only then can we make decisions on what to do in the mix. It is this stage that will influence these decisions. Therefore the outcome will be different.
There is no sound in the computer. there is just 101010101010. But that is not what we listen to.
You don't need a hugely expensive converter as they have improved greatly over the last 10 years. But to say they make no difference to an ITB mix is just plain silly.
........I haven't even touched upon inter-sample distortion on cheap playback systems.
The DAC does effect what happens in the box. |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 30, 2009 17:59
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yeah you are so right....
And i was only having a joke! hehe
i can make an example, my laptop dont have a fancy soundcard, i route my sound via the simple onboard 3.5mm jacks
and i am sure that when i get a new soundcard it will sound like silk to my ears.. IF i dump the behringer mixer that's in between....
Also if i change my speaker cables
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/spkcbl_e.html
btw i have subsystem with satellites so i need either xlr or rca(unbalanced) and regular copper speaker cable.. or whatever you call them... hightech flytech... good stuff, need to learn about the lingo of different cables
cherrio
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 30, 2009 18:00
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"The DAC does effect what happens in the box."
philosophical... hehe
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Google
Inactive User
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Posted : Nov 30, 2009 18:06
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Yeah I didn't mention cables in my monitor chain discussion, thought I would keep it simple.
But yeah they have an effect as well. |
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mquirk1
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
63
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384
Posted : Nov 30, 2009 18:13
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On 2009-11-30 17:24, Google wrote:
Quote:
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On 2009-11-30 17:07, Freeflow wrote:
Inside the computer it sounds the same
Now grasp that one! haha easy as 101010101010 10101 1010101 1010101 10101 101010 0101 01 0101
This shit sounds good!
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Every single decision you make during mixing is dependent on what you can or can not hear. Your tool for this is your "monitoring chain"
The most important part of this is your room, then your speakers and finally your DAC. No system is 100% transparent.
Now lets just have an example. Lets say your monitoring chain is only 20% transparent. EVERYTHING you do is based on what you can hear. In this case only 20%. Now lets say you take that same song and use a system that is 70% transparent. Do you think you will be able to make a better mix?
Yes you will
all those 1010000100010010 in the box do not get perceived as 1010100001010 by us. They have to get converted first, and only then can we make decisions on what to do in the mix. It is this stage that will influence these decisions. Therefore the outcome will be different.
There is no sound in the computer. there is just 101010101010. But that is not what we listen to.
You don't need a hugely expensive converter as they have improved greatly over the last 10 years. But to say they make no difference to an ITB mix is just plain silly.
........I haven't even touched upon inter-sample distortion on cheap playback systems.
The DAC does effect what happens in the box.
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ugh, dude, you seem to be intent on missing the point. again, as i mentioned in my VERY FIRST POST. i was NOT referring at all to how much easier it is to mix with better converters/interface etc.
as freeflow mentioned, a sine wav produced by a vst using a bottom of the range m audio card will be 110101010001 whatever, and guess what, that same sine wav produced on an apogee symphony/rosetta setup will still be 110101010001. it will sound EXACTLY THE SAME once it is mixed down.
i know exactly what MeditationProfonde was asking, because i wondered the same thing when i was a noob to production. will upgrading my soundcard suddenly turn me mixes from amateur to pro, like an on off switch? and the answer is of course no. if you're working on a project using some bottom of the range motu interface, and you install your new killer $2000 interface and don't touch any of the eq settings or remix ir or whatever, it will sound EXACTLY THE SAME if you mix it down and listen to it, for eg on your car stereo (of course it will sound better on your production setup due to better DA_.
stop confusing this issue further by going on about the monitoring chain. no shit with better converters and room you will be able to make better mix decisions, but that is NOT the point that is being discussed, as i repeatedly said.. |
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Google
Inactive User
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0
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Posted : Nov 30, 2009 18:30
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Quote:
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On 2009-11-30 18:13, mquirk1 wrote:
as freeflow mentioned, a sine wav produced by a vst using a bottom of the range m audio card will be 110101010001 whatever, and guess what, that same sine wav produced on an apogee symphony/rosetta setup will still be 110101010001. it will sound EXACTLY THE SAME once it is mixed down.
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it won't do!!!!
All VST synths require human interaction. In one direction you have visual and aural out put. In the other you have tactile input. It is this combination that creates a complete system. The DAC is part of this system. When you tweak the VST until you get what you like (aural output) you are interacting with it. The DAC is part of this process. It does influence the user input. Just like monitors influence a mix.
The VST is only ever used as part of this complete system. That is the reality of it all. Our perception of that reality is inherently imperfect. You can call this fallibility. Our thinking actively influences the events in which we participate. In this case tweaking VST/mix-down. You can call this reflexivity. The DAC is part of this.
Yes a sine wave is a sine wave. But I have yet to hear a single song that consists of only a sine wave. The whole process of music production is interactive. YOU as the participant will effect those 10111110001010 based on what you hear via your monitoring chain.
mixing on different monitoring systems, the same song, will not produce exactly the same results!!!!! |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
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Posted : Nov 30, 2009 19:11
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okej guys cool down
"mquirk1" is solely talking about the "mix down" inside of the program, also called, exporting, harddrive recording. in some cases people say bounce, which in my opinion is a different process, the process of make long audiofile edits to small segments, Ie bounce to set them free, also bounce several tracks to one... but its a different story
And what "Google" talks about is the fact that even if it all "sounds"(same digits) the same in the computer, which technically dont have any sound until we bring it out through soundcards with D-A-C it wont sound the same if the chain of the components that's carrying the sound out is bad.. against some chain that is better... chain=DAC, cables, mixer, monitors, ... and what not...
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mquirk1
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
63
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384
Posted : Nov 30, 2009 19:14
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ugh you keep ignoring the majority of my posts, i feel like i am speaking to a brick wall here so i am going to give up after this post. but for the millionth time:
1. i am NOT TALKING ABOUT MIX DECISIONS
2. i am NOT TALKING ABOUT "TWEAKING"
3. i am NOT TALKING ABOUT MIXING
4. i am NOT TALKING ABOUT PRODUCING
the original question was whether upgrading your interface would INSTANTLY make your mix of a better quality. here is a better example
you are using some crap bottom range emu interface. import a wav of some finished commercial track in cubase. now hit 'export audio mixdown'. done
now, switch to your uber $2000 interface. import the SAME wav of some finished commercial track in cubase. now hit 'export audio mixdown'. will it sound exactly the same as the mixdown you did with the emu interface? YES.
done, case closed, point proven etc. please stop talking about mix decisions because that was NEVER THE QUESTION ARGHHHHH |
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