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"The flop industry" article by Dj Yaniv Tal discussion
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 09:19
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But Basilisk, what if your music isn't gig music? Is the only criteria for music is going to be its dancebility or its attraction beyond the music itself (cool visuals, belly dancers on shows, etc.)? And what about the fact that now most people have made the next step and are willing to gig for free just to be there and present their music?
This leads to only once place- shallow music, un-professionalism. You make your music for free, you give it for free, you perform for free- how long can you do that? At one point you start asking for money to make it possible for you to go on doing what you do- but can you compete with tons of others that are doing it for free? Almost impossible. This is just another cycle and one with bad consequences.
The more you stretch something, the thinner it gets. That's a simple rule of nature.
I really appreciate what you try to do and I totally agree with your observations (and Anderson's) about the situation. I just think that neither you nor Anderson are offering a model that will really work for musicians / artists. After all, you yourself are just becoming an aggregator.
My model is here, btw: http://forum.isratrance.com/very-interesting-article-by-robert-rich/ (4th post)
And every one of us can make it work.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 09:49
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On 2009-04-09 09:04, ~d2~ wrote:
That is based on the presumption that the current model doesn't change. I am betting it will 
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I'm not so sure about it. That is why I wrote what I wrote about Anderson’s article. If we want the model to change, we have to change it. We, meaning the people who enjoy the music / art. If we keep enjoying it for free, we will leave the model intact, and actually, as I explained make things worse. Check the youtube / myspace new plan for making money from commercials / ads while you listen to artists’ music for free. I don’t have the final business plan for these yet, but for what I know so far, I’m 100% sure that they are going to actually take a bigger percentage and that the artists are going to be left with even less than what the traditional music industry gave them.
By doing nothing here, by not taking things into your own hands, you leave things to the big boys- and they’re going to grab as much as they can.
You enjoy music- support the people who make it- in what way you can, in any way you can afford. Go to shows, buy a CD when you can, tell about it to others, donate by paypal, whatever. Otherwise- you want have it! Simple.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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~d2~
Inactive User
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751
Posted : Apr 9, 2009 09:51
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My space will get replaced by something else. Myspace has been a trend thing. It will pass. |
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 11:12
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basilisk - to be able to do what u do cost money that u must have from somewhere else i have to guess cause ektoplazm profit is coming from where ?
ill be stocked if you say those little google ads are the financial support?
well , if i win the lottery or find extreme easy and payfull job then i promise all my music will be free forever....
meenwhile i hope some people also buy what i sell beside take the free only and i share alot for free also music and samples and my knowledge and share expirience for sure... but the real deal is the label that support me and now have to make his money back! they are worth to the music x100 then all those free stuff... i meen for the free album i got heaps of good words but how they say , u wont get food with good words.
for the dude said to see people dancing is the best payment , i have to agree. but they wont dance as much if you make music in amature level , with monitoring of cheap stereo system and all your tools are the cheapest around.. and i know why , cause it sounds not as good as if the same person made it in big great studio.
www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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subconsciousmind
SCM
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1033
Posted : Apr 9, 2009 11:35
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I think this is a creative discussion and I'd love to see a solution for that somewhen. Also the text with the 1000fans is actually a very interesting point of view.
Personally I have never earned a cent with my music, I have invested far more than I ever got from it. Most of my music is freely available now and this of course also did almost not create any income on other ways. Earlier it was possible to earn some money with gigs, since CD sales didn't give you anything. Now also gigs are not payed anymore often. People don't want to pay a lot for the parties etc.
It frustrated me somehow, but it also forced me into a process. I now reached the point where I do (almost) not expect anything from my music anymore. What is left is only my unconditional passion for the creation of my music. (sounds good but I'm not all there  sometimes I still get a bit frustrated) So, basicall it actually caused a good thing.
Sure I need to have another job to survive and I'll never have the time to make my music as perfect as pure professionals can do.
So, what I hope for all artists, is that if people are neither willing to pay for CDs, nor for parties, that they at least put up with a bit less perfection in the music, especially when it comes to production, since there not only time but also partially equipment and financing plays a role.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 14:44
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On 2009-04-09 08:49, shahar wrote:
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On 2009-04-07 10:55, Spindrift wrote:
Oh really?
So you find a correlation between the depth and meaningfulness of music and if the artist can survive professionally on it?
In that case I guess pop and rock played on the radio is deeper and more meaningful than music in small obscure genres like ours? |
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You got it wrong. It’s the other way around. If we don’t find a way to support musicians as I said, we’ll have either mainstream pop products / cut & paste “successful” formulas or interesting immature music that doesn’t reach its potential.
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I got what you where trying to say the first time around, but I still don't see anything hinting at that being true.
Of course what you call deep and meaningful or interesting immature is subjective. Personally I can say that from the psytrance I find interesting enough to play in a DJ set it 0% that comes from musicians that manage to make a living from their music.
So it's for sure not a fact that musicians need to able to make a living from their music to make something worthwhile.
Maybe your taste happens to be the artists that manages to make a living from it, and then I can see that you experience a correlation. I'm still not sure that say Posford and IM would not make music if they would not been able to make money from it, nor that money have improved the quality of their output. Maybe they would have made less tracks, but not even that is sure.
A lot of people do find they loose inspiration when they constantly sit in the studio...IMO music is about expressing life and if you just sit in the studio all the time you end up having not so much to express.
The main problem is that there are not enough fans of most artists in this genre to support them using market economy.
Even when goa trance was trendy in Europe and some artists did have decent sales it was not really a genre than more than a handful of artists could make a living from.
Even if they made decent sales, setting up a decent studio was really costly back then and they would be doing well just to get back their investments.
You find a lot of very affluent people when you look at who is who of trance producers in the mid 90's, and most of the ones that actually might have made some profits could for sure made a lot more back from their investments and time than what they did producing music and/or running a label.
So the issue here is that this scene is to small for artists to make a decent living from. The only way to do that is to get a lot of gigs. That can be cool for a few years, but touring around the world and if you are really good make about the same salary as the average factory worker might not seem like such an awsome deal after a while...especially not if you got a family.
If you make music that not many people wants to buy nor hear live, well I guess you have to view it as a hobby. That's what I do anyway
So it's not a small issue to wrestle, how do you make it possible to make a living from producing a product that is not commercially viable?
There are really only two ways I know that societies dealt with that in the past:
1) A few rich individuals supporting the art.
This used to be common in the past, but I guess rich people today think that they pay enough as tax. But if you are rich I'm all for you donating some money to struggling artists. And I guess if you have some rich friends you can try make them donate some money to some artists.
2) Subvention art with tax money.
Personally I would like to see that they gave less for the opera and theatre and used that money for trance music instead. Maybe we could write to some politicians asking for them to put forward that as a suggestion. Or maybe take up a carrier in politics?
Unfortunately there are a lot of more people into opera and theatre than psytrance, so that might be somewhat difficult change to get trough.
Or maybe we can find a new form of economy instead of market economy?
But I really agree that it would be great if all trance artists that want to could produce as much as they wanted without worrying about having money to eat and without a commercial pressure attached to their income.
But does anyone have a solution to that issue that have a chance to work in practice?
The only way I see that could work just by fans changing their behaviour is if that we all would start donating some money going directly to the artists pocket. That way we bypass the maybe 90% of the cost which goes to labels, CD-pressing, distributors and shops.
That would mean that we would have a chance to collectively support the scene despite the fact that each artists doesn't have that many fans, without the expense becoming unreasonably high.
Unless it is some kind of fund dispensing the money on specific criteria, there will still be commercial pressure attach to the money in which case I doubt it will mean much of an improvement over the current situation...it will just be more artists that either have to tour all the time or constantly sit in the studio.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 15:30
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Also one of big failures in this development or rescuing the artists and this whole vibe is that djs only seek unheard tunes demos and forget that there a uncountable plenty of heavy timeless killer bangers which should be played way more often than only in one summer.Thats my opinion.
Another BIG one is that most djs are mafia djs that play and feel like shamans with stolen or unpaid material.this is really sad.If you are dj atleast than you should be correct to the scene to the creators of this music.
Great article..lots of true considarations
a lot of djs without mentioning names here.Djs who are booked for loong years even internationally.Known names. Are stealing material like each day .
This are neo charlatans.For me it counts only the life acts on a line up list or a flyer and for years now.I never go to a party where only djs are playing,I better save that money for something 100% real. https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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Yuli
Retired
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40
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 16:19
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Forget for a moment about DJ's and Artists of electronic music.
Musicians, violin players, Guitarists, Pianists, all those have to study long years to achieve the expertese to perform, to conduct, to create music etc..
I see Spindrift posts for a while, going on and on for "free" music etc.. And I totally agree with Shahar, it's not about being greedy, or turn commercial or anything like that.
As a person that studied years the knowledge of computer programming, so he goes to work and get paid. Some ppl learn for years the knowledge of creating music or performing music or other art forms... Those ppl are entitled to be paid for what they do exactly as the computer programmer and MORE!
BECAUSE:
Music is the highest level of healing that we have in this world. Some ppl are not aware of that, but this is a fact.
Ofcourse doing it for free will probably make you a saint. But also very hungry saint. And if you want to do what you do well, there is no roundabouts and cutting corners, its 100% full time job. With all the good sides and all the bad sides.
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 16:26
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1 ..exactly therefore we have to look for solutions that artists wont starve.
Very beauty fact.. that music is often the highest level of healing.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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170
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 17:01
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On 2009-04-09 11:12, Elad wrote:
for the dude said to see people dancing is the best payment , i have to agree. but they wont dance as much if you make music in amature level , with monitoring of cheap stereo system and all your tools are the cheapest around.. and i know why , cause it sounds not as good as if the same person made it in big great studio.
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That was me, and I totally agree with you. I know that I'm one of the lucky few (still new) psytrance producers with a well paying job that I know will be able to support my musical efforts without any extra support from trying to sell the music I create.
I can't say for sure that I will always give my music away for free, but I do know that any money I would receive would go back into musical equipment or the local scene that I already support financially.
Either way, I'd rather keep producing quality music and my "payment" would be traveling around the US/world sharing it with others.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 17:10
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On 2009-04-09 16:19, Yuli wrote:
Forget for a moment about DJ's and Artists of electronic music.
Musicians, violin players, Guitarists, Pianists, all those have to study long years to achieve the expertese to perform, to conduct, to create music etc.. |
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Yes, but it's not the case that it's not possible to make a living from mastering an instrument or being a composer.
Yes, it is a tough market, but overall it's also a big market.
The thing I'm saying is that you cannot expect to make a living on doing music in a commercially insignificant genre.
For example my father is skilled in many instruments and have studied music very hard for many years. He was doing quite experimental psychedelic rock in the 60's, and while that is what he is know for doing by the most people and where his heart really was it's not where he earned his money. Instead he had to start writing theatre music, play pop music or play in jazz clubs.
He cold of course instead spent his energy complaining about the fact that psychedelic rock didn't sell enough and that he had a right to earn a living from his efforts, but personally I think it's a lot more sensible to do what he did, find a way to capitalize on his skills.
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On 2009-04-09 16:19, Yuli wrote:
As a person that studied years the knowledge of computer programming, so he goes to work and get paid. Some ppl learn for years the knowledge of creating music or performing music or other art forms... Those ppl are entitled to be paid for what they do exactly as the computer programmer and MORE!
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I'm 36 years old and have studied music since I was 5 when I started playing the violin.
I have been singing in well respected choirs for 7 years, have been going to a music school for six years and have been singing professionally in the foremost musical theatre in Sweden.
I have been using synthesizers, sequencers and studio equipment since I was 7 years old and have studied sound-engineering at SAE.
I was 26 years when I started programming and is self-taught....and I was 27 when I started earning a living from it.
I'm in no way bitter because I from an economical perspective wasted an incredible amount of time on music. I just realised that making the music I like to didn't seem like a good way to earn a living.
For example spending one day on creating a TV jingle earn me more than I earned in over two decades of doing electronic dance music. But even if I would managed to get that kind of commercial work with my skills it not really why I got into music and not what I want to do, and I much prefer programming as a profession.
For some people writing jingles/ film/theatre/game music, or being session musicians, seems like dream jobs. And if you have the skills it is certainly possible to earn you living from that.
But to be a professional musician without having to adjust to the demands of the market is no human right.
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On 2009-04-09 16:19, Yuli wrote:
Music is the highest level of healing that we have in this world. Some ppl are not aware of that, but this is a fact.
Ofcourse doing it for free will probably make you a saint. But also very hungry saint. And if you want to do what you do well, there is no roundabouts and cutting corners, its 100% full time job. With all the good sides and all the bad sides.
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There are a lot of people creating extraordinary things in the spare time, and having hobbies is not that unusual.
Again, what you define as doing it well is very subjective and like almost 100% of the music I think is good in this scene is made by people that is not able to make a decent living only from their music.
If I produced full-time that would probably result in some 3 albums a year, which would mean that even if there where an existing market for my music it would quickly become saturated.
Sure it can be hard, and personally I have a family of four to support and would really wish I got some spare time for the music right now, but I'm also very glad that I'm not having psytrance as my source of income. Because even if I where one of the top names in the scene I really would not like to have to tour constantly to earn a salary that still would be hard to support the family with.
And being forced to constantly produce enough material to earn a living, even if the sales from each release are not very big, would IMO hardly be a source for inspiration.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Yuli
Retired
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40
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 18:06
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I believe that the discussion was wether there is a deterioration of skill or quality, if one doing his art as a hobby.
I claim, that as if Arthur Rubinstein or Oscar Peterson, ( two highly acclaimed pianists from different genres ) would take their musical career as a hobby and do something else on their daily life, they most probably would be pretty good at what they do, but would never reach the peaks that they did, while committing themselves to what they do.
And in the end of the day, it's all about this. Commitment. If one really wants to be a good composer, apart of skills and personal ability to compose, you need to invest all the time you can, to do so. If you compose part time, than in my humble opinion you will not reach your peak, as in every single thing we are doing the only way to "get there" is to commit yourself.
Being a musician is a very hard job. Some people don't understand it and think it's all sex drugs and rock n roll. But if you really want to deliver and to change, you need to work hard, and despite the fact that as an artist you never know what tomorrow brings you, since maybe your music today is gold for the same ppl, that will think your next tune is total shit tomorrow. This is why being a musician is a hard job.
And this is exactly why it should be rewarded with money like any other profession, IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH.
I mean, private clinic with shitty doctor, will not succeed ( unless it has a good PR )
Oops I think I scored a goal to my own team
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
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1560
Posted : Apr 9, 2009 18:37
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On 2009-04-09 18:06, Yuli wrote:
I claim, that as if Arthur Rubinstein or Oscar Peterson, ( two highly acclaimed pianists from different genres ) would take their musical career as a hobby and do something else on their daily life, they most probably would be pretty good at what they do, but would never reach the peaks that they did, while committing themselves to what they do. |
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A concert pianist needs constant practice to be good, and I agree that it would be very hard to be at the top in that business as a hobby.
But the main difference is that they are using their skills in a way that is commercially viable, there is enough people that really appreciate a excellent concert pianist to support them.
Who knows, maybe they actually wanted to play improvised avant-garde jazz, but was forced into being concert pianist...otherwise they where lucky that what they love to do happens to be commercially viable.
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On 2009-04-09 18:06, Yuli wrote:
And in the end of the day, it's all about this. Commitment. If one really wants to be a good composer, apart of skills and personal ability to compose, you need to invest all the time you can, to do so. If you compose part time, than in my humble opinion you will not reach your peak, as in every single thing we are doing the only way to "get there" is to commit yourself. |
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That might in theory be the case according your subjective opinion of what is a good composer, provided that the artists you respect would not have made music as good music in case they would not had earned a living from it.
Like I repeatedly said I know it's not the case according to my taste, so it's certainly not some universal truth.
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On 2009-04-09 18:06, Yuli wrote:
And this is exactly why it should be rewarded with money like any other profession, IF IT'S GOOD ENOUGH. |
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But it is just like any other profession. If you are working with something that there is not sufficient demand for it's not possible to make a living from it.
What is good is subjective, and hardly the same as what is commercially viable and that is what determines if you can make a living from it.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 19:59
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Yes it's just like every other profession!!
Just in every other profession, no one comes to restaurant ( as an example ), orders a meal, eats it, and goes away without paying!
Music word of this Millenium, has to adjust to completely different ball game. And as much as it gives possibility to so many people express their art, and share it, it also "cheapens" the art forms, and makes it much more "disposable" rather than "timeless" as it used to be.
And lastly I want to relate to the subject of Psy Trance issue, in this whole discussion that u always come back to those underground artists that have more "soul" than the "commercial" ones, and despite the so-so quality of their productions u prefer them... My friend, I agree with you partially, but I really try to look at broader spectrum, since Psy Trance scene, in a musical Ocean is like drop of water, not more... Comparing to "real" music world we are still so not "musical", I can hardly call myself musician, after I hear "real" musicians...
But never the less, quality is measured by demand in our world. And to get to far, doing your thing as a hobby you need to be soooooooo talented. Never witnessed one
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Apr 9, 2009 20:09
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There's some unfortunateness to producing part time. You can be every bit as good as someone who does it full time, but sometimes your equipment can limit you. This isn't to say that you can't produce really good music, but when compared to someone else with similar talent and better studio equipment, it wouldn't sound as good (although good is subjective, there's plenty of well produced music out there that is unenjoyable).
However, imho, if you can only produce for half the time someone else can, just make half the quantity of music, but make it at the same quality.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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