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the devil as a symbol for a soundgenre?

psyOmask


Started Topics :  2
Posts :  164
Posted : Nov 12, 2004 14:17
after reading everyone posts i realize that most of u try to compare allmighty God with evil Velzevoul,the peacefull heaven with burning Hell,which one is good n which one is the bad,which is the right one n which one is the wrong...
NO right&NO wrong!but we must understand the existense of all the above terms as we are part of life we must go through the whole circle,to see light u must go through darkness,to see heaven u must go through hell,to be born.....first u must die!
the choice is ours..
          free thoughs...let it out...
Nik©
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  37
Posts :  455
Posted : Nov 12, 2004 14:38
Very good topic I was thinking about posting pretty much same thing myself, I see many ppl screaming
dark , evil Satan , bad vibe , all b.s. they are just not familiar with the subject , if on party next Dj after some full on or proggy act comes out and plays some killer dark full power music I haven’t seen people running out of the dance floor , screaming the devil is here ... although that would be also nice ! Muwhahaahhahahah

p.S. dont be scared its just psychedelic trance !

traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member

Started Topics :  234
Posts :  3803
Posted : Nov 12, 2004 19:37
Quote:

On 2004-11-12 10:19, Stash wrote:
i rather be with the devil and go to hell than heaven

hell is where all the killer parties are at

bom





the heaven muslims believe in sounds pretty killer to me..           "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven
Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member

Started Topics :  168
Posts :  2984
Posted : Nov 13, 2004 00:26
End of the day on friday... thoughts give rise to lengthly expostulation, intended delivery of which is conversational rather than aggresively pontificating. Take it with a grain of salt, ya know?

Dark sounds are enjoyable, sure, but I don't know what's fun about worshiping or adoring the forces of evil. As a humanist I am aware of enough bad deeds done by men that there is no need for such a thing as a devil - Satan merely seeming like a composite archetype of all that is still wrong with the human race. Just the other day I was researching the West Papuan independence cause - a topic most people are likely unfamiliar with. I was trying to answer why Holland would give West Papua away to the Indonesians who moved in and spent the last 40 years bombing, raping, killing, torturing, mutilating, humiliating, and robbing the indigenous peoples of that land. In 1961, with the help of the Netherlands, the country even declared independence, so I was extremely perplexed that the UN actually handled the transfer of power from legitimate native government to a hostile colonial power...

Digging deep, I found with no great amount of surprise that it was yet another instance of Western powers meddling in the affairs of remote lands for their own benefit. The USA pushed Holland to give it up, and why? To secure an agreement from Indonesia that they would not become a part of the Communist menace. Coincidentally, several huge US mining companies gained many lucrative and exclusive contracts in West Papua. Today, here in the world of 2004, a company ironically named Freeport owns and operates the worlds largest and most profitable gold and copper mine, built directly on to one of the Amungme tribe's sacred mountains, to which they have no access and receieved no compensation other than the ruthless suppression of their culture and way of life, all for the glory of the allmighty DOLLAR... and this is just the evil actions of greedy mankind on but one small corner of the globe. If you ask me there doesn't need to be a devil; there doesn't need to be a hell - our species is capable of enough evil acts to account for the powers of any number of devils, and hell is being on the other side of undeniable power and greed. Worshipping this, respecting it, being a "friend" to such forces... it makes me think a person is either ignorant or without compassion. Do they grasp the implications of their association?

We in the lands of priviledge don't know existence such as the tribespeople of Amungme do. You might think otherwise were the wheels of chance to have deposited you in a far worse situation on this planet. Being of the first world we have the luxury to be completely scatterbrained, but I'd say it's shameful to slip so far into an extreme, playing "house" with an ancient archetype.

Anyway, it isn't entirely related, but I got to thinking about how Westerners embrace evil like it's something cool, or how people act tough in peaceful circumstances. I grew up in the suburbs here in frosty Canada and it was always a constant to see misguided peers adopting the attitudes and methodologies of gangsters, proving what exactly? That you're hard, compassionless? I fail to see the purpose of manufacturing antagonism when people could just be getting along instead. And here, I still don't understand why some people, in order to fully relish in the experience of the dark psychedelic sounds, must adopt a similar stance - that they are friends of the devil, an extrapolation of undercurrents in the human psyche that is the cause of so much misery worldwide. What exactly is worthwhile about that? Thoughts, only.

Be in peace.
mono mono
Onnomon

Started Topics :  5
Posts :  314
Posted : Nov 13, 2004 02:24
Ok, here we go...

I have a personal conjecture that what we call good and evil are not a duality. I propose a third state: apathy. I've found that viewing good and evil in terms of relational connections seems to be the most general form of defining the terms. In humanistic terms what we call "good" tends to represent "nuturing" connection, while "evil" is disintegrating or "disruptive" connection. The connection we're talking about is that of the connection of human intent. The apathetic state is one of non-connection (not the act of disconnecting, but the state of not being connected).

Let's take a village of "good" people. These people support each other. In the good village when someone loses their home and is out on the street, sitting on the sidewalk, a good person walks by, sees a person in need, presumably begins a process of rebuilding their life (the whole village is good, and wants to nurture, especially those misfortunate).

Now we can go to the village of "apathy". These people mind their own business, These people live by the creedo "live and let others live their own way". Now when an apathetic walks by the downtrodden man (lightening struck his home, destroying everything), the apathetic avoids the poor guy. "That man's life is not my business" fleets thru the apathetic's mind in an attempt to curb a burgeoning nuturing tendancy caused by too much Dr. Seuss. Other examples of real apathetics are ascetic yogis who have chosen to disconnect with the physical world as much as possible.

Now, in the "evil" village, think "Escape from New York", or, "The Roadwarrior", or New York City (just kidding). this is where, for example, acquiring resources (land, money, etc...) means grabbing it from someone else, by any means possible, usually at the expense of the other party's destruction (physical, financial,...). There are certainly evil people in this world, those who enjoy destruction, and those who have no empathy (i.e. apathy) and have no sense accountability.

Is apathy evil? Apathy is neither good nor evil.

If you look at the continuum of good versus evil, apathy is a zero point but it's a different point depending on whether you approach it from the evil side than when you approach it from the good side. An apathetic can be destructive or not. But that "not" doesn't necessarily mean "good" either. Just because they "leave you alone" doesn't make them good, nor can anything be said whether they are evil. That is why I think the apathetic state disconnects good and evil.

In the world of connection, you don't need destructive connection in order to recognize nurturing connection, you need apathy (disconnection) from which to measure it from. And disconnection (remember the state, not the action) is not inherently evil; disconnection of intent. There may even by a physical level of disconnection, when the order of interaction falls below the Plank distance, matter/energy interaction falls into the quantum noise margin. To not recognize the orders of connectiveness whitewashes all the detail that seems to be present in our known universe. This is counter to the "Butterfly Effect".

So, in the dualistic mentality of good and evil, certain leaders and fundamentalist followers of various faiths and nations end up with the following resultant actions:

1) Any enemy of my enemy is my friend.

2) Eliminating evil from the world is an act of good.

3) If you're not with us, you're against us.

You can apply the two-state and three-state approaches to various historical settings too. I think the three-state approach seems to jibe with actions of the peoples of certain countries during WWII. When a nation limits themselves to a Two-state mentality we tend get what's happening right now in the world. I can say that Bush and Bin Laden are sitting in the same boat.

I could also make an argument that disruptive connection (evil actions) foster the evolutionary process at a quicker pace than just having nurturing connection. Once WE ALL become lovey-dovey and caring for each other we get fat and happy and fall into a steady-state, until the next big asteroid slams into the planet.

As far a Christianity is concerned, Christianity is really represented by the New Testament portion. The Old testiment is supposed to be period of trial for humanity. The New Testament doesn't advocate revenge as a form of justice, nor does that deity actually whack people with lightening bolts. I remember a TV debate where the "pro-invade-iraq" side had the head of the southern baptist church. This guy was going off about how we need to instill justice (for Sept. 11) and was quoting Old Testament. I was chomping at the bit (at my TV set), I wanted to ask him "doesn't the new message, the new testament espouse, very strongly, of forgiveness of one's enemies?" Although i'm no longer a christian I have great respect for that axiom of the faith. Also, and Arafat even asked this one, why aren't the christians up in arms about their "holy places" being assaulted (Bethleham). The best answer I can figure is that, to a christian, those are important historical places but not essential to the religion. In that way, it's very transportable, like Buddhism.

Finally, good vs evil music. It's all social conditioning. 9/10 people in the western world would say that Carmina Burana is evil music. Why? Because half the underworld-oriented movies use it as soundtrack material. Most "dark" music tends to borrow from that stereotype. John Williams' Star Wars music borrowed heavily from "The Planets", composed 100 years earlier. When we hear either, we think "101 strings, in space". Is "I'm a Barbie Girl, In this Barbie world" good-feeling happy music?; I could see that as hollow plastic apathetic faceless music that walks by Aqualung ignoring his downtrodden fate, if I choose, and no doubt some do. Or, I can laugh, thinking: "those guys are making living of that tune!".

stoking the fires,
enjoy,
dean
mono mono
Onnomon

Started Topics :  5
Posts :  314
Posted : Nov 13, 2004 02:24
hmmm...that was supposed to be a "quick reply"
kolladetregnar
Derango

Started Topics :  0
Posts :  119
Posted : Nov 13, 2004 09:59
Hey all !!
pretty intresting topic here..
satan,the devil,belsebub,belial,hin onde,lucifer,asmodeus etc etc is a christian invention founded in the bible. He was an angel that got kicked out from heaven because his misbehaviour.
Still, this is a story from the bible. I don´t belive the bible, cause i´m not a christian.
Let the music & the experience be God.

Evil music & the devils music are NOT the same. Good music for me is songs that catches my ears. can be evil, can be dark, can be bright..
..as long as it´s NOT fluffy )

B0oM !!!
jaramogi
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  15
Posts :  918
Posted : Nov 13, 2004 13:54
live and let others live their own way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
blessed


Started Topics :  4
Posts :  60
Posted : Nov 13, 2004 14:51
Quote:

Evil music & the devils music are NOT the same.




So what is evil music and what is Devils music? I dont think the old mighty satan is playing the guitar or a fluite in hell?
dadiv

Started Topics :  5
Posts :  77
Posted : Nov 13, 2004 15:19
Yes Basilisc! U have a nice point there, i think devil is the ancient arketipe for the evil I (actually from a Jung point of view also).
And nice association between the West and the East, there is this Latin saying "Lux Ex Oriente" (don't know if the spelling is right), wich means that the light comes from the East. And light is" god's arketipe". And somewhere in the bible there is another saying that goes "Money is the source of all evil." Wich brings us to West again, ad it's culture based on economy. Even the sacred in the West is very related to the economical supremacy. While other forms of sacred r much more related to nature and other kinds of respect.

Yes Mono Mono, devil stands for disruption bur not only...
His the son of shadow, a bat, a serpent, his connection to the forces of earth and the night is very strong.
So for u to "connect" with the (d)evil u have to be in harmony with this elements. And there are many things to learn by night, as u must know... lol
There is action but in another direction, goes deep inside.
And all of this is of course the "poetic" language for what happens with man in general and our mist of good and evil that are separate but touch all the time...
BOOM
X-File

Started Topics :  3
Posts :  95
Posted : Nov 13, 2004 20:51
i believe that when you die you either go to heaven or hell. and i also believe that while there are many paths to hell, the only one to heaven is through Jesus Christ. but i still like Psytrance.

respect           My Mind Is Going!!!
Evil Doctor Inc
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :  41
Posts :  549
Posted : Nov 15, 2004 23:51
AN APPIFINY LADIES AND GENTLEMAN

THERE IS NO DEVIL
LUCIFER HAS BEEN CAST OUT AN BOTTLED

MANKIND HAS TAKEN OVER THE DEVILS WORK

is it mankind you evil worshipers are taking yourselves too

Look around their all around just waiting to f@$k you,



those who God Wishes to Exalt
He first humbles

fight your own demons
let the music do it for you

it will if you believe

BOOMM
Spiritual_mind
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :  29
Posts :  246
Posted : Nov 16, 2004 17:01
Deliver Us From Evil?


deeplydisturbed
IsraTrance Junior Member

Started Topics :  11
Posts :  385
Posted : Nov 16, 2004 18:07
believe in something and it is there,or you could just go about with your daily lives and see what happens in the end.
good and evil coexist,one cant be there without the other---->what a load of crap,where do you people get your ideas from?????
we all have brains, we can all differentiate between good and evil.
you are god,you are the devil.you choose who you want to be!
i choose the music
MATUTERO - DJ ZIK
Matutero

Started Topics :  6
Posts :  117
Posted : Nov 17, 2004 09:29
whawhawha nice one topic
devil
Trance Forum » » Forum  Trance - the devil as a symbol for a soundgenre?
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