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stop calling psy dark
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
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38
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1931
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 13:00
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what do you mean on the cid=?
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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1560
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 13:01
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On 2008-12-17 07:10, aXis wrote:
Bro, Kala is Art in sanskrit . PERIOD. Rangbhin is wat u colorless. Shvet for black. KAla is not a sanskrit word for black.
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FFS...it's hard to argue with someone who refuses to accept facts even when they are printed black on white in any Sanskrit dictionary:
http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/downloads/SanskritDictionary.html
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kAla
1 mf(%{I} Pa1n2. 4-1, 42)n. (fr. 3. %{kal}?), black, of a dark colour, dark-blue MBh. R. &c.; m. a black or dark-blue colour
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On 2008-12-17 07:10, aXis wrote:
Another thing the differnce between Bengali and sanskrit is of atleast a thousand year.
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It was you who claimed that kala was not commonly used as a word for black. Where you referring to that it is not commonly used by you and your friends when you chat in Sanskrit?
If you look back in the discussion I have provided a source to the claim that Kali comes from the Sanskrit word for black.
I can agree that etymology is not an exact science and it's fair to question the established theories, but the fact is that it's the established view among Sanskrit scholars that the name Kali comes from black.
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
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1931
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 13:44
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hm, finally someone started to be more accurate. i am glad about it. it works a bit terrifying to see that even the people from india dont hold to the facts of the knowledge that they protect with so much fundamentalism. and not one or two people but so much people.
of course it is black.
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mk47
Inactive User
Started Topics :
118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 14:12
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.. this discussion been a good one , if a bit confusing .. tbh i thought the goddess name kali does derive from the color black .. kala , pronounced `kaa laa` .. then there's the age ,, kalyug .. pronounced `cull yug` , supposed to be the age of kali ? .. im confus ..... and what axis means when he says kala is something completely unrelated .. that is pronounced ``cull aa`` .. a skill , nothing to do with this discussion ..
and moki , i was asking you what u meant by life changing ritual ? animal sacrifice or amateur tantrik sex ?
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Yidam
IsraTrance Full Member
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144
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3171
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 14:13
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jeez louiz spindrift... how can you reference google when you're talking phonetics of a language you haven't spoken?
here check this ..taken right from your link:
"parva-kAla * =m. a periodic change of the moon"
ok maybe this will help...
KAAH-LAA : spelt kala means black.
KAL-AAH : spelt kala means period of time
KUL-LAH : spelt kala means art/or the study of art
now I might be wrong by some degree... but these are the simple definitions that you come by when you've been in India and speak one or two of the hundereds of mixed up mashed up languages that have been derived from the long lost ancient tongues.
So if you go by phonetics... Kali is pronoinced KAAH-LI which is closest to KAAH-LAA. So you might jst be right by default.
anyhoo since you like linx...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_languages
And in Bengali (I live in Bengal so you can take my word on this one)...
Black : Kalo
Time: Shomoy
Study of Art: Kala Bidya
PS ... just asked someone (locally) about the derivation of Kali... who seems to think it's derived from Black/Dark... but for no reasonable reason. Shall try and dig deeper.
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
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1560
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 14:44
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On 2008-12-17 14:13, Yidam wrote:
jeez louiz spindrift... how can you reference google when you're talking phonetics????
here check this ..taken right from your link:
"parva-kAla * =m. a periodic change of the moon"
maybe this will help...
KAAH-LAA : spelt kala means black.
KAL-AAH : spelt kala means period of time
KUL-LAH : spelt kala means art/or the study of art
now I might be wrong by some degree... but these are the simple definitions that you come by when you live in India and speak one or two of the hundereds of mixed up mashed up languages that have been derived from the long lost ancient tongues.
since you like linx...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_languages
And in Bengali (I live in Bengal so you can take my word on this one)...
Black : Kalo
Time: Shomoy
Study of Art: Kala Bidya
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Err...where did I reference google?
Transliteration of Sankrit or Bengali is not straightforward, and there are several different conventions.
Kala is certainly the most common transliteration I have come across, but the first "a" is certainly not a typical English "a".
But while we are stuck with roman letters to discuss this it becomes quite futile trying to prove each other wrong by using different transliterations.
Ask any English speaking person to pronounce "kala" and "kaah-laa" and the end result will be pretty much identical...in neither case correct Sanskrit pronunciation.
Regarding "kalo" I'm a bit surprised because (not taking your word for it  ) I looked it up and you have both "kala" meaning "black; defaced, soiled, dirty, in disrepute, stigmatized" and "kalo" meaning "the black colour".
I have spent years in Bengal and I have always heard the black colour referred to as "kala" rather than "kalo".
I'm not sure if it's a dialectal issue (I spent most of my time in a village outside Shanti-Nikketan and in Suri) or if I hear bad or mixed up how the two different words are used.
Edit: Ok I checked and "kala" should be the adjective black while "kalo" is the noun.
Damned complicated Bengali, what's wrong with having one word for both the noun and adjective 
But you are saying that you use "kalo" when describing something as black? (``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
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Dennis the menace
DevilsDennis Sparris McHilton
Started Topics :
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2899
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 14:53
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J
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
193
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3858
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 15:05
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That's so sad mate...
I just don't know in what way!
Now I understand Pavel's avatar. 
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
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368
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 15:25
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Spindrift...after viewing your link to the sanskrit dictionary...yes kala means black and YES Kala means time (your link states both)...and Kali's name is based on Kala = Time...so even though the word could be used as Black, it was not the basis for her name...her name and philosophy was entirely based on Kala = time and space, void. Now we could argue about this, i prefer not to..cause it's just semantics....you insist on one, and alot of us insist on the other. This is why it is said she is the most misunderstood Goddess. Her philosophy is not based on the colour black..it makes more sense that it would be time and space.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
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Posted : Dec 17, 2008 15:37
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On 2008-12-17 15:25, Fria Tantrumm wrote:
Spindrift...after viewing your link to the sanskrit dictionary...yes kala means black and YES Kala means time (your link states both)...and Kali's name is based on Kala = Time...so even though the word could be used as Black, it was not the basis for her name...her name and philosophy was entirely based on Kala = time and space, void. Now we could argue about this, i prefer not to..cause it's just semantics....you insist on one, and alot of us insist on the other. This is why it is said she is the most misunderstood Goddess. Her philosophy is not based on the colour black..it makes more sense that it would be time and space.
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I agree...I have never said that it's wrong to associate "Kali" with time, just that you cannot claim that it's not associated with black.
I think all associations is somewhat describing of her properties as a symbol...black, time and void.
She certainly is dark IMO, but I don't find that to be negative and never claimed that she symbolises black and nothing else,. I was simply stating what is the established view is amongst Sanskrit scholars when it comes to the etymology of the word.
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
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Posted : Dec 17, 2008 15:51
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On 2008-12-17 15:37, Spindrift wrote:
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On 2008-12-17 15:25, Fria Tantrumm wrote:
Spindrift...after viewing your link to the sanskrit dictionary...yes kala means black and YES Kala means time (your link states both)...and Kali's name is based on Kala = Time...so even though the word could be used as Black, it was not the basis for her name...her name and philosophy was entirely based on Kala = time and space, void. Now we could argue about this, i prefer not to..cause it's just semantics....you insist on one, and alot of us insist on the other. This is why it is said she is the most misunderstood Goddess. Her philosophy is not based on the colour black..it makes more sense that it would be time and space.
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I agree...I have never said that it's wrong to associate "Kali" with time, just that you cannot claim that it's not associated with black.
I think all associations is somewhat describing of her properties as a symbol...black, time and void.
She certainly is dark IMO, but I don't find that to be negative and never claimed that she symbolises black and nothing else,. I was simply stating what is the established view is amongst Sanskrit scholars when it comes to the etymology of the word.
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But this is what we disagree on..I do not think it is established at all with any Sanskrit scholars, as all the scholarly works on Kali I have read make the time association and not the black association, as far as the root of her name. The etymology of the word is more Time, and not so much black That the 2 words mean the same, and that time can be black is but the grey area. Yes she is Dark in colour and imagery but it is not literal, hat ws the point of the discussion....that you need to look beyond what is presented, as what is presented is the illusion. So at the end, there is nothing dark about it.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
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Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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ILSE
IsraTrance Junior Member
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175
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 17:51
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i am with you fria ..
well spoken
bOOm |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
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95
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Posted : Dec 17, 2008 19:15
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
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368
Posted : Dec 17, 2008 19:23
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On 2008-12-17 19:15, Colin OOOD wrote:
What associations does the colour black have in India, anyway?
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I'm not really sure about this COlin. Though Black is not a usual colour in India at all. You won't find many traditional clothes in Black, you just don't tend to see alot of black unless you live in a Westernized, Urban setting. India mostly consists of very bright colours, flashy, glittery, over the top prints..
Even for funerals, white is the norm (Unless it's a christian Funeral offcourse).
I have however seen only one group of religious followers, South Indian in Nature, wear a black cloth (only the men), but this is some Shiva cult. Maybe someone else will shed more light soon on the "Black" association.
**************************************
Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Dec 18, 2008 02:51
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The beautiful thing about symbolics is that it is open for interpretation, and after all this semantics and assumptions about what I think, let me explain how I view Kali.
Sorry for the long essay, but I really cannot try to make a one-liner about this
Also I like to point out that this is all stuff based on my experiences and not from reading of Hindu scriptures, so I don't guarantee that it's not conflicting with views of many Hindus and it's just a rough idea about my interpretation of the Hindu pantheon and Kali's role in it.
The Hindu pantheon is for me a map of the forces at play in the creation. These forces are all interconnected and can be seen as aspects of the divine and material realities.
Most belief systems has somewhere in it's foundation a trinity. The reason for this is simple...when you think carefully about how creation can have started there is an obvious series of events.
A fair assumption is that one start with nothing. For us "nothing" sounds quite undramatic and uneventful...but in reality it's a concept that is just as difficult for us to grasp as infinity.
Now for creation to manifest we need to go from this 0 and create two polarities. Polarities create vibrations, and as you probably all know everything in creation is simply vibration.
Even with matter we have been able to confirm that atoms is not solid and the actual shell is only there because electrons are spinning. Take that spin away and you only have tiny electrons, neutrons and protons. And those are in turn made up from the vibration from smaller sub particles.
So basically so far we have not actually discovered physical matter as such, all we find is vibrations.
So to have creation we need to have three basic forces:
"0" which is the original void. "1" and "2" which is plus and minus.
In Christianity these are called father, sun and holy spirit.
In Taoism it's Tao, Yang, Yin.
And in Hinduism today usually it's Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
Ok, so how do we describe these forces?
First of all the "0" is like I said incomprehensible for our consciousness. This is something that you see in Christianity in that the only way to the father is trough the sun, or in Taoism that Tao is the undefinable and unmentionable. How Brahma is described in Hinduism maybe some can fill in on, but despite being part of a trinity with Vishnu and Shiva he is sure not commonly worshipped and he has only one temple.
Regarding "1" or Vishnu he is the force maintaining the creation. If one thinks back on the moment when we went from 0 to 3 it seems reasonable to assume that the positive force is the one that initiated the vibration, and when that happened the negative force came in to existence at the same moment as a consequence.
Then finally we have the "2" or Shiva. This could be seen as gravity force that always is pulling back the unbalance created by the positive force.
Now with that description probably many westerners might think "a dark force trying to pull us back into the void...that doesn't sound that great...".
But first of all the positive force wouldn't necessarily do a lot of work...if we assume that there is no loss of energy in the vibration it's enough with one quick offset from balance to create and endless vibration as long as the negative force keeps trying to pull it back to the balance point.
So in that scenario, without the negative force we would only see a glimpse of creation when the positive force appeared and then it would be over and back to the void.
So one can see the positive force as representing a seed which then get nourished from the negative force being matter (soil) or the mother and so create life.
So IMO Shiva and all his aspects is associated with the dark but also with nature, the feminine and the mother.
Now it happens to be Shiva that is the front figure for the feminine part of the Trimurti, I guess due to patriarchal preferences just as Christians choose to have "the holy spirit" representing the feminine force. But fact is that Shiva is half woman but happens to have a masculine name.
Now to get to Kali we need to dissect Shiva. Now it might seem odd that we have this Shiv-Shakti union...we already have positive and negative in Vishnu and Shiva...they are like the father and mother of creation, not Shiva-Shakti?
IMO the reason this is so prominent in Hinduism is that the dark side is easily misunderstood.
The matter is seen as bad and tempting us into sin, the dark is scary, nature is evil and women are almost reduced to a necessary evil for the purpose of procreation.
This is a very dangerous interpretation and therefore one have to focus on how vital the function of the negative force is. It is the force that pulls the vibration back into a position that will make it swing back to positive and hence it really symbolises death and birth at the same time.
And in a way encompasses all the three principal forces since it's trying to draw the positive force into the balance...and that in turn creates an offset which results in more positive force.
So finally getting to Kali:
Kali in my eyes represent the pure aspect of the negative force. Not embedded with clarifications to make sure that the force is understood correctly, but it is the actual force that drives time and creation.
And looked upon in isolation the force is terrifying because it is death and it is the force that actually is attempting to pull the whole creation back into the void. And time in itself is the number one cause of death by far...when things vibrate you get wear and tear and in the end things break. So in my view if there is anything that can be labelled as terrible it is the force of time and death...it's the archetype of all our fears.
Now this is something completely different from what the actual purpose with Kali worshipping is. In Christianity we are used to hearing about "Gods wrath", and can easily get the idea that a terrifying God is one that will punish wrongdoers in all sort of cruel manners.
But when one again put her in context with the whole symbolic of Shiva-Shakti one realises that it is to her we owe our life with all it's joy and pleasure. So the things we see as terrifying are infact just a lack of perspective, and worshipping Kali should lead to a deeper understanding of what function the negative force actually has in creation which in turn leads to a brighter view of life. If you are able to face Kali you are beyond fear and have and understand that all these forces is one and inseparable and if you can see that then only bliss exists.
Now, I have mostly done Shiv-Shakti worship, and I guess I am the kind of person attracted to concepts of time, space and nature. But I like to put in a good word for Vishnu and Krishna, since in the context of this endless essay I have somewhat diminished their importance.
The main focus for me when I worship aspects of Vishnu like Krishna is humanity.
Big mysteries about creation and cosmos is interesting and it's important to connect to and love nature, but one should not forget love for humanity. And Krishna helps me to be able to see trough the sadness and suffering we create and instead see peoples inner child full of love and joy.
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