| |
| Author
|
Sharp supersaws, how?
|
vafl
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
36
Posted : Apr 26, 2016 14:50
|
oh, sorry, i meant on plugins=software clippers.
but soft clippers have overshoot what is not so desirable if you want to save some headroom.
i prefere hard clippers for "be loud" thing. |
|
|
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Apr 27, 2016 00:15
|
Hard clipping with a plug-in will produce the exact same sound characteristics as clipping your master output channel would, if you really can't leave without your "loud" thing. But it still doesn't make any sense.
For percussion sounds, shaving off the transients is hardly the way to go. Introducing odd harmonics can have its uses, but there's better ways to do it.
So saving headroom matters to someone who recommends clipping the master's output channel? This is getting better and better. |
|
|
|
vafl
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
36
Posted : Apr 28, 2016 22:49
|
|
some peaks can be shaved with clipping and there will be no audible distortion after that process, there is nothing undesirable in that if you ask me. |
|
|
|
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Apr 29, 2016 00:09
|
That's just great man...
Please try and explain to me, why would you want to clip a signal if it were not for what that does to the waveform? Which is a form of distortion and it's quite audible.
But you're the one claiming you can clip a signal without any audible distortion. That's nice. Can you please post an example then?
You're just a troll, if you ask me.
|
|
|
|
vafl
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
36
Posted : Apr 29, 2016 16:35
|
Quote:
|
Please try and explain to me, why would you want to clip a signal if it were not for what that does to the waveform?
|
|
some peaks are very fast and not perceivable with the human hearing system.
you can clip those peaks wich gives you the ability to amplify sounds more than before peaks were in them wich in return makes mix sound louder.
and there is also one of another uses of clipping when you want to squash the sound to make it phat, thick and bright.
|
|
|
|
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Apr 29, 2016 18:05
|
So now we're talking mastering.
We may need a road map:
so you advised care when applying distortion to leads, due to the fact that it might alter the waveform in bad ways - while neglecting the fact that there's plenty types of distortion with different characteristics. one could argue that, with leads, it's really just about the sound as you have a lot of leeway to get crazy with distortion and modulation fx - if only it amounts to something that sounds good. there's so many examples of that, that I feel it's not really necessary to name any here. Hope you understand.
On another post you've suggested that clipping the master output channel with your drum mix/drum sub group is a good idea, at which point you're told that there's plug-ins that cover all kinds of distortion, among them hard clipping that produces the exact same effect without the bad parts.
So I'm going to say it again: no matter the benefits or sound characteristics you expect from clipping the master output channel with whatever signal, you can do it with "hard clip" inside a distortion plug-in. Somehow you seem to have trouble with this very simple idea.
Now you're trying to pick on the notion that some masters do apply a very subtle form of peak clipping before they hit another limiter and it still sounds like you don't actually know what you're talking about (pun intended).
If there's peaks that are so fast that they're not perceivable to the human hearing system, then I'm sure you're not talking about your drum transients, right?
You're confusing a lot of concepts. Of course that, if you smash the transients out of any signal, you are effectively reducing it's dynamic range and thus you're increasing it's RMS value - in short, you're making the loudest parts closer to the lowest. But you're also affecting the volume shape of these sounds a lot and in bad ways, removing their impact - which is something that most engineers take care not to mess with in such an aggressive, careless way.
That's precisely why there's such things as parallel compression, so you can bring the lowest parts of the signal up a notch without messing with the transients, thus effectively getting less dynamics but keeping your drums breathing. That's also why people use bus compressors, 'cause they may catch up on those peaks, but do it in a much more gentle and musical way then "hard clipping", and it does add harmonics to it depending on how much you drive them, but these harmonics are more musical and subtle.
Which will ultimately lead us to the only valid conclusion that you don't know what you're talking about and there's a good chance you know that too. Which makes you a troll. Pun intended again.
|
|
|
|
vafl
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
36
Posted : Apr 30, 2016 13:36
|
well, we all have our own ways of doing things.
I told mine and you told yours wich gives a lot of information to the thread starter and other folks reading this.
|
|
|
|
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Apr 30, 2016 22:01
|
when you put it like that, it's as if there's two equally valid points being made here.
there's not. there's misinformation followed by its debunking.
take this options instead:
1. you're a troll
2. you're clueless
3. you're both
p.s. you can still prove your points by providing some audio examples where you apply your methods. |
|
|
|
vafl
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
36
Posted : May 7, 2016 16:41
|
Im individual that lives in reality and to me everything is diverse.
There is not just "one" there are "many".
From your point of wiev on the world you are one, but from my point you are just one of many.
clipping signals is basic thing, first thing that they teach you in Audio schools. |
|
|
|
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : May 7, 2016 17:35
|
Well, where else would you live?
But then again, you're just assuming things.
You're making it seem like I'm full of myself and enforcing my views on everyone, while there's more to it then that.
The fact you seem to ignore while making such claims, is that the information you were sharing here (and on other posts which I've mentioned here) is far from being good avise. In fact, it's quite the opposite.
Most Audio Schools will advise their students to take care of their gain staging AND avoid clipping. Do I need to post a healthy number of articles so as to convince you of the obviousness of this? I think it's unnecessary given that you can just open another tab and google it yourself.
I'm not suggesting that clipping doesn't have its uses. It certainly does, but it's not something to be thought and applied like your describing. Hard Clip within a plug-in will work just the same.
So before we need to do this again, in plain bold:
HARD CLIP (plug-in) or clipping (master output channel) will do just about the same thing to the signal.
If you have any problem with this, please present some technical arguments rather then vague philosophy about living in a reality with a lot of diversity - which is cool, I guess - but hardly contributes anything to the topic.
Audio School seems to be a good idea, though, go for it! Will probably work better then making idiotic claims on public forums and wild assumptions about the one guy that's trying to make the case for "some things are just plain wrong".
From my point of view, there isn't one but many views on things, but I'm much inclined to number 3 on the previous list myself.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : May 7, 2016 17:51
|
This is from Limitless (DMG Audio) manual:
Another trick a lot of top-flight engineers use is clipping the signal before the limiter, to reduce the
work the limiter has to do to peaks. Limitless features a full-spec clipper with massive
oversampling, so you can achieve the “clipped convertor” effect inside the box.
Notice the "FULL-SPEC CLIPPER" part? Right? Right!
|
|
|
|
vafl
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
36
Posted : May 8, 2016 15:20
|
clipping stuff before limiter is normal.
well it is already on the internet so i will share something, i think you will understand me better.
1)Take a kick and a bassline.
2)put the kick on 0db and bass line to taste.
3)create as you call it "drum bus" and put a limiter in there.
4)split the kick in two parts(do it with linear phase brickwall filter at around 250hz, you have one in Izotope ozone)
5)send a low part of the kick together with the bass into "drum buss"
6)send high part of the kick directly to master where there is no limiter.
What is the point of this?
The point is that you get punchy mix because transients are not eaten by the limiter, and there is no noticable clpping, you can see meter going to red but you cant hear the distortion.
ok?
|
|
|
|
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : May 8, 2016 20:31
|
You could make the case for using a clipper and/or clipping an AD converter so as to catch the highest peaks and try to decrease the perceivable pumping and envelope distortion on a limiter due to it working with variable strength on the material - which is an audible artifact.
This is indeed a technique that's used - to which extent I can't be sure - by some mastering engineers as it's a way, although controversial, to cope with the client's demands for competitive loudness.
However, this isn't done (or shouldn't be done) like you're describing in your mini tutorial. It's done with either a clipper plug-in or by clipping the AD converter of outboard gear.
This is exactly why there's a clipper inside Limitless and other similar plug-ins. But if you look closely, it gives you much more options and control then simply clipping your master channel. It allows you to use soft or hard clip and anything in between, along with oversampling that will push aliasing beyond the audible range (or available bandwidth), thus helping to avoid problems.
The difference between soft clipping and hard clipping is huge. With hard clip, the wave is literally shaved off once it hits the threshold. The response is immediate, there's no attack or release times, everything is instant. You can get away with very fast peaks, specially if their frequency is high up in the spectrum. So it's theoretically possible to hard clip without perceivable/audible distortion, or to further compensate for it. So there, clipping doesn't always equate to audible distortion. Happy?
Now, you're tutorial is completely neglecting Gain Staging and, obviously, Headroom.
It's just some routing scheme for clipping the transient of the Kick alone, yes?
So you like to shave off the transient of your Kick. You probably like introducing some odd harmonics in there as well, 'cause that's mainly what you get.
It's surprising that you haven't found other, much more healthy and controllable methods for doing so.
If we were to produce the exact same results that you seem to praise too much (no pun intended) without the negatives.
Quite easy:
1)lower your Kick 10dB or more
2)instead of using the master channel, create a pre-fader send for another auxiliary channel and place a clipper plug-in there
3) watch the input meters on your clipper plug-in and set the threshold accordingly, then gently turn the volume/drive up until you start catching the peaks
4)transition between soft and hard clip slowly and listen carefully, try different oversampling settings.
P.S. I'm not a fan of this methods myself, as I think should be clear to anyone. I think this methodology is best used in mastering applications, by people with tons of experience and able to do this with a degree of control that's not as common as it may seem. Some with dedicated outboard gear whose characteristics, like insane oversampling, jitter free coding, some converters even prepared to saturate before they go over, so forth and so on; and a ton of experience and knowledge on top of that. Even so, I feel that most of them are doing it, if at all, due to their client's demands for insane loudness.
|
|
|
|
vafl
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
36
Posted : May 8, 2016 20:54
|
You did not insult me even once in the last post, im impressed 
It is mastering and mixing in one go, so when you finish a track it is mastered.
It is slowly gaining in popularity because you get better results than taking mixed stereo song, clip it and than limit it.
Song is punchier and louder at the end.
|
|
|
|
frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : May 8, 2016 21:30
|
Quote:
|
On 2016-05-08 20:54, vafl wrote:
You did not insult me even once in the last post, im impressed
|
|
It's safe to say that both your notions and methods are filled with holes. That alone should be a reminder that you need to do some homework and dig further.
If you find that offensive or insulting, you shouldn't. The truth only does damage to those of us who like to hold on to their own self cultivated illusions.
When people make bold claims about something in public, they should expect that other people will also voice their own opinions regardless of the fact that they may eventually disagree. This is to be expected.
When such claims seem to turn an entire edifice of knowledge upside down, then it's almost as certain as the laws of physics. To word it differently: then they're just asking for it, really.
One of such claims would be "mixing and mastering in one go". Do I really need to say anything?
|
|
|
|
|
|
