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Released albums that were never paid for by the label
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
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2984
Posted : Feb 8, 2008 21:11
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While the issue of downloading and piracy is no doubt relevant to continuing discussions of industry viability, there is an elephant in the room that is seldom discussed. What about entire albums released by (at times) reputable labels which are never paid for? One sometimes hears vague reference to such things, but more often than not it seems as if artists vanish entirely after such an unsavory experience, and the issue never goes public. When this happens, no one is the wiser--and the operators continue to ply their trade as they have before. To add another wrinkle to this complicated matter, sometimes it is the distributor that fails the label (which is then unable to pay their artists)... and sorting this out can sometimes be quite difficult.
Business practices in the underground are not always honest. My theory is that increasing awareness of the various issues may help to improve the situation. In order to do that we need to know when things go wrong. Is it possible to root out instances in which an artist has not been paid for a substantial work and have a real discussion about the issue?
To begin, I have heard direct from the artist that Total Eclipse's 2004 album Update Files was released illegally. 12 Moons/Healer and Opsis are two great artists that seem to have dropped out of the scene after being ripped off by their respective labels. And I have just now read that Triac's debut was not paid for--is this for real?
I realize that this is a contentious subject to raise, but I do so in the interest of promoting better, more conscientious business standards in the psytrance world. So many businesses in this scene are not in any way accountable to the public--and the public remains largely ignorant of the shady dealings behind the scenes. What can we do about this? Why don't the artists come forward instead of taking a step back? Let's hear your thoughts...
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Zman
IsraTrance Junior Member
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14
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3784
Posted : Feb 9, 2008 02:36
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This is a valid topic Basilisk, thanks for opening it 
I have also come across cases where artists haven't been paid for their albums specefically between 2003-present but i don't really want to take names as the artists have requested me not to bring this to the public.
As you stated earlier, sometimes it is the distributors who are responsible for ripping labels off - one such case that destroyed several labels financially was ZMA. I think the problem lies with the fact that this is an underground culture & hence for some reason people tend to give legal procedures (contracts etc.) less emphasis & importance because the monetary values/figures one is dealing with is relatively small on comparison with other genres of music. I think it is extremely important for artists & labels alike to insist on using the contract system especially when you are dealing with a full-length artist album because 3000-4000 $ + is not a joke.
The only reason artists may never take things public is because they do understand that this is a dicey genre & that nothing is reliable due to the grave state of sales affairs. I guess unpaid artists keep extending the slack hoping that the label will at some point wake up & pay up - this is a great thing from one point of view. However, i do agree with you when you say things should be brought to the open after a certain point. The only purpose of this being - to raise awareness. A lot of artists in this genre of music aren't quite the richest & many of them would prefer taking a hit/loss by not getting paid, rather than going through legal hassles & hiring a lawyer etc. etc. which would ultimately cost them more money. Sometimes i wish we had entertainment lawyers that dealt with smaller genres of music without charging exorbitant fees. A possibly viable option is for groups of artists to hire a lawyer together & carry out procedures which may reduce the sum total cost.
I also believe it is very important for such things to come out into the open for the listener's awareness as well. I think all of us listeners have some sort of limited liability towards all artists/labels in the sense that we ought to support those labels who are in reality supporting the scene as opposed to those who are signing artist albums but ripping them off by not paying $$$. I personally, only buy releases from non-black list labels (certain degree of assumption as well) & i also make it a point to never buy/support any releases from any labels that are known to screw up - i don't want to take names here right now.
A label in the first place should never rely on sales in order to pay artists. Its just not right, if you can't pay the artist through your own pocket then don't sign it, simple as that... that way there are no distributor excuses bla bla etc. If your in debt taking a fucking loan, beg, borrow, steal whatever but pay it back. The only way is to use rigid time based contracts which clearly state that the payment has to be made by so and so date, and if not the artist can take further action and publicize it.
I think 'we' as a forum ought to be more supportive to artists who come out here in public & share their bad experiences with labels. Very often in such threads i see people blaming artists saying 'sort it out in private', 'take it to PM' etc. etc. but after a point that approach doesn't work & public awareness is the only way.
BooM 
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mk47
Inactive User
Started Topics :
118
Posts :
4444
Posted : Feb 9, 2008 07:18
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wow they didn't pay triac ?!?! .. shame , that album is a real masterpiece ..
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Braindrop
Braindrop
Started Topics :
140
Posts :
1730
Posted : Feb 9, 2008 22:35
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I guess also, to make things bit more clearer... make a blacklist of labels collected from all artists experience whove theyve had a tough time with and paste em here..... so tht the others will not have a tough time henceforth.
 www.braindrop.in |
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palex
Palex
Started Topics :
21
Posts :
476
Posted : Feb 9, 2008 23:42
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wow..i guess some people begin to shake right now..eheheh
lets see who....
any bets?
keep music evil!! |
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Zman
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
3784
Posted : Feb 10, 2008 03:03
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Quote:
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On 2008-02-09 22:35, UrbanPsySpirit wrote:
I guess also, to make things bit more clearer... make a blacklist of labels collected from all artists experience whove theyve had a tough time with and paste em here..... so tht the others will not have a tough time henceforth.
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There already is one if i remember right |
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DETOX
Moderator
Started Topics :
296
Posts :
6194
Posted : Feb 10, 2008 03:22
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I suggest to close this topic because...
A)If the artists dont want/care to bring their issues in public then noone else should.Sometimes we must respect the privacy of others.
B)Some cases from the ones mentioned have already been discussed and analysed in great detail in the past in this forum.No need to repeat heated conversations.
C)And most important of all,most of the people that will talk about things they have heard of or think that they know,are most of the times misinformed and will most of the times say wrong things in public making things even more complicated.For example,and with all the respect to my friend Basilisk,i know very very good two of the cases he mentioned (Total Eclipse and Opsis) and things are not exactly how he mentioned them in both of them.
For example i happen to know very well from my personal friendship with Loic and Stephane from Total Eclipse that their album was not exactly illegaly released by Arcadia.They had originally a deal which the Arcadia guys didnt honour and after that Stephane very wisely took some measures against them.Actually Arcadia fucked up a lot of people at that time and most of them happened to be from France.The Total Eclipse case is a little bit more complicated and the same applies to the Opsis case which by the way wasnt the reason that Opsis dropped out of this scene.
I say lets close this topic and focus on more constructed ones 
After all i dont have the time to make a list with all the people that owe me money from the trance scene heh.
Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!! |
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
168
Posts :
2984
Posted : Feb 10, 2008 03:29
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This is precisely the problem though... we hear of things but never find out anything of substance. All we're left with is hints and hearsay, and artists continue to be ripped off, and the scene continues to suffer. I know this sort of topic can devolve into muck-raking... but I am asking for a bit more. And anyhow, it isn't merely the specific cases (which seem useful precisely because they can illustrate the problem so well) but the overall issue of bad business practises. What can be done to improve the situation? |
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DETOX
Moderator
Started Topics :
296
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6194
Posted : Feb 10, 2008 03:40
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Its not just artists that are being ripped off,its also labels from distributors,its also distributors from shops,its party and festival goers from promoters,promoters from artists that never appear in events although payed in advance and so on.
There is nothing to be done to improve this situation.
Ripping off and getting ripped off is part of the business world since ancient times.
These things happen when dealing with business especially in a small and amateur scene like the psy trance one.
Toodaloo Motherfuckers!!!!! |
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Penelope Pitstop
Inactive User
Started Topics :
2
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80
Posted : Feb 10, 2008 03:51
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H E A L P
They are going off on one again |
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The Journey Man Project
Inactive User
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128
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931
Posted : Feb 10, 2008 03:55
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I'd say it is best to prevent a slag fest from happening and let the professionals handle it. It will lead to mor fighting and hating in this scene, and there seems to be a fare bit of it as it is... if somebody is ripped off by a label or whatever there is plenty of legal methods from mediation to court action that they can take... and yes if somebody is alreayd bankrupt you won;t get your money but you can be satisified if they have to serve timeor at least get a conviction against their name... but naming names is silly... next thing we'll have Simon P running from the paparazzi...
--- Love In Light, Dance In Darkness ---
My CD's - www.discogs.com/collection?user=liquidcream |
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 10, 2008 05:29
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Legal recourse is seldom an option in this scene--the amount of money involved almost never warrants going to court or getting lawyers involved (and then there is that cross-border thing to worry about). That's why public opinion counts--we "vote" with our wallets, right? If no one ever bothered to bring down ZMA would they have simply continued to rip people off left and right? Whenever it becomes increasingly difficult for shady operators to do business in this scene some progress is made. Crooks can't continue forever because they are found out sooner or later--and exposed. The ethos that suggests these matters should remain private and ultimately unknown seems counterproductive.
Or on the other hand perhaps nothing can ever be done and talented artists will continue to come and go... but I'd really like to think there is another way.
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The Journey Man Project
Inactive User
Started Topics :
128
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Posted : Feb 10, 2008 06:39
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sure I mean there are now three dark psy labels I"ll never buy anything from simply because I've heard from certain artists they never pay the royalties that are due, or even give a copy of said cd to said artist... but when I find a label that supports it's musicians, and has good music I support it to no ends.. usually even buying directly fromt he label even if it costs more... I'd just hate to see this turn into a bitch fight...
--- Love In Light, Dance In Darkness ---
My CD's - www.discogs.com/collection?user=liquidcream |
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Xolvexs
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
241
Posts :
2848
Posted : Feb 10, 2008 10:13
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man this trance section is become more like a World Trade Forum court of economic justice...how many such threads...paid not paid
scammed, robbed, stolen, piracy, counterfeit...damn this section has less of trance and more of economics...yes you will be cheated at some point in life big deal...if you are not smart you wont make it in economic sphere...in trade there is only one rule---MY PROFIT IS YOUR LOSS...
When death comes to your doorstep, make sure you are alive |
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Doom mooD
Started Topics :
1
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30
Posted : Feb 10, 2008 11:00
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Quote:
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On 2008-02-10 10:13, doughcherry wrote:
...in trade there is only one rule---MY PROFIT IS YOUR LOSS...
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How about equal benefits? It's greedy bastards that thinks like that...^^
...no wonder the world looks like it does... |
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