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Layer kick with "subkick" for a better sound ?
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bandarlog
Bandarlog
Started Topics :
44
Posts :
809
Posted : Apr 30, 2009 00:47
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On 2009-04-29 15:34, Fragletrollet wrote:
Yeah best thing I discovered with processing both bass and kick, is that there is almost always wayyy too much sub-bassfrequencies. Cut'em! A nice diagonal "shelf" from 0hz up to 100-140hz 
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In (fast) psytrance that's a problem. When you're producing slower styles there's no need to cut much subs. A shelf from 0-80hz is often my choice.
I layer kicks too btw (again: not for psytrance). One kick ranging from 50-500hz and the other is more a click than a kick with a steep HP excluding all the bass and low mids.
  http://www.soundcloud.com/bandarlog
http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/bandarlog-memoirs-of-the-moment |
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The_Contraption
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
11
Posted : Apr 30, 2009 05:02
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I use this technique quite often at the moment, however i feel my kicks are a bit amateur so i'm not sure about it for psytrance. i really like the way it sounds for prog, and have had decent results making goa with it also. |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Apr 30, 2009 11:20
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On 2009-04-30 00:38, D-Alien wrote:
instead of layering the kik why not layer the bass and sidechain just the low part of the bass with kik. this way you will open room for the subs of the kik without loosing the bass with constant eqing (if we have a standart KBBB scheme and if we eq the bass acording to the kik we will eq the rest 2 notes also..., we dont need this, right  ). dinamic eqing is really much better. also just download Tsa's kiks and you wont need no layering... just learn to make good layered bass where its subs are sidechained with the kik and you will be amazed how the subs of the kik will pop up without even eqing it...
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I first picked up on this technique in 2003 when I was making breaks. Always do it in the techno/prog stuff, and in the trance stuff I make, but only for the non 16th basslines that I make, that actualy coincide with the kick. Tried the layering with 16th saw basslines, but one single saw patch, always sounded better than the layered ones.
But I ama sucker for laying leads over the single saw bassline. Big stereo image in the mid/highs, consistant bottom end, one massive riff. I love it
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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Conny
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
224
Posts :
149
Posted : Apr 30, 2009 13:53
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Before as i started layer kick i was more listening to how the finished sound of the kick would sound.
But now i hear how the second layered just add that extra depth to the sound, give that extra sound that the song needs.it´s really found how you notice how small things improve the sound 
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D-Alien
Oxidelic
Started Topics :
51
Posts :
619
Posted : Apr 30, 2009 23:20
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Ok friends. On layering I ment not making a bass with 2 different sounds or synths. I meant something totally different. Supposing we have a bass made with cronox or vb or whatever synth we like, than maybe some quadrafuzz and some analog eq for shaping. What i do is divide the signal in two parts using buses if I am making it in Logic or Cubase or just using the Audio Effect Rack in Ableton which has the ability to divide the incoming signal into independent Chains over the same channel. So chain or bus the logic is the same. One of the divided signal is high passed until 300-400 or even 500Hz depending on the bass and the kik. The other signal is Low passed from 300, 400, 500 or more! also depending from the signal. So in the first chain (or bus), which will be the lower one (high passed), I construct a super standard sidechain configuration, fast attack, fast release, threshold so that the GR goes between -12 -18db, the highest ratio possible (in live it goes till infinite..) and some other small adjustments. The second chain (the low passed one) is the mids of the bass. Normally the mids of the bass dont collide with the kik because most of the trance kiks have one good big pretty hole between 350 and 500Hz and also becasue we can open the stereo image of the bass mids. so we dont need no sidechain there. What we win using this technique? we can put 4 sixteenth notes and thus way the kik will overlap the first and part of the second note. But the mids of the bass will not be sidechianed so the bass will be still there but the kik will pop up very powerfully. This technique is used for years in all kind of prduction where kik and bass overlaps, imagine long bass notes where kiks are overlapping all the time. if we just EQ statically the bass we will have notched bass on notes where we dont need it, because the kik doesent kiks every time a bass note is played, so why EQ those bass notes, and loose precious information? You know that a bass can change A Lot even with slightest EQing. Also if we start to change notes of the bass the previous EQing we have made will not be valid for the new notes and it will bring more resonance and mud. I mean having a bassline all the time on F but than changing it to A G or whatever we like.
So dividing the bass into 2 or more groups (each group occupies just a specific freq range)and sidechaining just the ones that interfere is good practice and brings muuuuch more time for real creativity and creation than loosing hours and hours of trying to achieve some super ufo bass with notches.... Especially in the forest trance where we can perceive a lot laaaarge bass notes that overlaps with the kik and still the kik sounds pumping, with warm bottom, and the bass changes notes freely...
So this is what I meant with Layering. I think layering the kik is unnecesary, if we feel a lack of freqs with the kik we can just boost them a bit, or just look for another kik
sorry for the long post
Sound:
www.myspace.com/oxidelic
www.myspace.com/setanicmusic
Image:
www.antumbra-studio.com |
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vipal
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
123
Posts :
1397
Posted : May 1, 2009 15:57
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really sounds worth a try. by the way: you know how to double the outputsignal of a vst in sx3 (busses story)? and you maybe have a comment on the db-sidecahin compressor (for me the easiest but i am doubting how it sounds)? |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
134
Posts :
1516
Posted : May 1, 2009 16:22
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Quote:
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On 2009-04-30 23:20, D-Alien wrote:
Ok friends. On layering I ment not making a bass with 2 different sounds or synths. I meant something totally different. Supposing we have a bass made with cronox or vb or whatever synth we like, than maybe some quadrafuzz and some analog eq for shaping. What i do is divide the signal in two parts using buses if I am making it in Logic or Cubase or just using the Audio Effect Rack in Ableton which has the ability to divide the incoming signal into independent Chains over the same channel. So chain or bus the logic is the same. One of the divided signal is high passed until 300-400 or even 500Hz depending on the bass and the kik. The other signal is Low passed from 300, 400, 500 or more! also depending from the signal. So in the first chain (or bus), which will be the lower one (high passed), I construct a super standard sidechain configuration, fast attack, fast release, threshold so that the GR goes between -12 -18db, the highest ratio possible (in live it goes till infinite..) and some other small adjustments. The second chain (the low passed one) is the mids of the bass. Normally the mids of the bass dont collide with the kik because most of the trance kiks have one good big pretty hole between 350 and 500Hz and also becasue we can open the stereo image of the bass mids. so we dont need no sidechain there. What we win using this technique? we can put 4 sixteenth notes and thus way the kik will overlap the first and part of the second note. But the mids of the bass will not be sidechianed so the bass will be still there but the kik will pop up very powerfully. This technique is used for years in all kind of prduction where kik and bass overlaps, imagine long bass notes where kiks are overlapping all the time. if we just EQ statically the bass we will have notched bass on notes where we dont need it, because the kik doesent kiks every time a bass note is played, so why EQ those bass notes, and loose precious information? You know that a bass can change A Lot even with slightest EQing. Also if we start to change notes of the bass the previous EQing we have made will not be valid for the new notes and it will bring more resonance and mud. I mean having a bassline all the time on F but than changing it to A G or whatever we like.
So dividing the bass into 2 or more groups (each group occupies just a specific freq range)and sidechaining just the ones that interfere is good practice and brings muuuuch more time for real creativity and creation than loosing hours and hours of trying to achieve some super ufo bass with notches.... Especially in the forest trance where we can perceive a lot laaaarge bass notes that overlaps with the kik and still the kik sounds pumping, with warm bottom, and the bass changes notes freely...
So this is what I meant with Layering. I think layering the kik is unnecesary, if we feel a lack of freqs with the kik we can just boost them a bit, or just look for another kik
sorry for the long post
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Sorry for a perfect post? 
Thanx , this is a pearl |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : May 1, 2009 16:29
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i tried your technique and it worked great for prog and full on but not much for night stuff ( sounding too much electroish,but gonna experiment again)but how do you divise the signal in cubase? i had to duplicate the midi track,is there a other way? |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
134
Posts :
1516
Posted : May 1, 2009 16:43
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On 2009-05-01 16:29, PoM wrote:
but how do you divise the signal in cubase? i had to duplicate the midi track,is there a other way?
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Was wondering the same |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
8087
Posted : May 1, 2009 17:03
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gonna try later but i think you have to use the sends |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
134
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1516
Posted : May 1, 2009 17:36
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On 2009-05-01 17:03, PoM wrote:
gonna try later but i think you have to use the sends
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2 sends on the VST Channel? |
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shellbound
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
601
Posted : May 1, 2009 17:40
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no, the sends on the audio channel. first, create either 2 Group channel or 2 FX tracks. in the audio channel for your bass, use the first 2 send slots to send the signal to each group. set the sends to be Pre-fader mode (it's the button between the On/Off and "E") and move the volume fader for the original bass channel all the way down. this way the original is muted and you have the signal going to both group/fx channels equally. you can control the balance between them to taste by using their individual volume faders.
https://soundcloud.com/dead-end-dance
https://soundcloud.com/shellbound |
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Nomad Moon
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
134
Posts :
1516
Posted : May 1, 2009 18:46
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D-Alien
Oxidelic
Started Topics :
51
Posts :
619
Posted : May 1, 2009 23:19
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well friends this is just one possible technique. It is not a scheme or a rule or some undoubted law. No. It is just a technique used by sound engeneers back from the years of rock if you wish where the rock bands have constant rolling basslines along with rolling kik drums... if the engineers just mix this material they will have just mud and saturation... Using sends, buses, chains, aux or whatever other name, it is always the same, is a great helper for a lot of things. For separating an audio signal, for send FXs, for groups, etc...
Septa is totally right in his post. there is how to achieve a separation of an audio signal in Cubase without using this prehistoric technique of just duplicating the midi. We also duplicate the work and creativity time also.... For the sidechaining process here in isra there is a great great tutorial on how to make a single kik bass sidechain using groups in Cubase. But using layering we will just improve this technique and thus the sound, so that we can use freely 4 16th notes instead of 3, and also play freely with lengths of the bass even when the kik kiks. Why is this so important? because it sounds much more groovy, much more rolling and opens another level of rhythmic and harmonic possibilities. It doesn't matter the style, dark, fullon, prog, drum'n'bass, or minimal... in every one of those genres there are good artists who amazed us with their almost magical sound.. how they achieve this mix of super charged low freqs elements? kiks, several basses, sounds that have full spectrum range of presence? dont tell me they use just static eqing...
So your best friends are, sidechaining, sends/groups, and EQ. this all is totally enough so that you will have complete control on which sound has to pop up and it equalizes the rest just at the moment it shows up...
So that I dont sound like some sidechain fanatic ehehe you can achieve dynamic Eqing in every single DAW just using an Equalizer that has the ability to automate its bands independently. For fruity loops I think mr. Elad tsabeat posted a great tutorial how to use the peak controller for a total kik shaped sidechaing for the bass. I mean repeating the shape of the kik directly over the EQ on the bass channel on every note when the kik overlaps. for other daws you can just "draw" the automation for the correspondent bands of your preferred EQ and than duplicate them every time a kik kiks. But there is a very good and extensive tutorial about this on Tom Cosm page. worth to see it. It is with live ableton but the logic applies to every other DAW out there. Anyway, separating the signal and sidechaing just the problematic part is like more elegant, but this is just my opinion. It has worked great for me for several situations, dark, ambient, morning.
One more thing, You can use the layering technique also on your other sends or directly on audio or vst channels. When you dont want just to swwweeeppppp away all those super warm low and mid freqs of your sounds... a lot people say.. just low pass all your sounds smoothly from 1000hz to 150hz.... hm.. killing warmth... why not just using the above technique between the kik and the bass with our sounds too For sure there will be some major lowpassing we have to make, but not so brutal as just sweeeeep and thus delete precious mid information... think of it.
Hugs friends
Sound:
www.myspace.com/oxidelic
www.myspace.com/setanicmusic
Image:
www.antumbra-studio.com |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
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8087
Posted : May 2, 2009 00:10
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i ll expirement a bit more but one problem it is the kick is not overlarping with the bass only in the lowend but in all the spectrum ,so i had to compromise the sound of the kick with some equing (i will try to spread the medium and high of the bass in the stereo field ) |
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