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KnB First, NO, Last
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
204
Posted : Feb 5, 2016 21:09:27
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Hi all
In my delirious state I wanted to share something with you guys. I probably mentioned this before on this forum but, Even though I had some doubts I just figured whatever.
Sure many would disagree, being that you know full how to do it your way, so cheers and good luck.
For those who don't:
Leave the Kick and bass until the end of your composition. It mezmorises you. It makes you feel that simple loops is good enough when it really just amounts to laziness. It is all about simplicity integrated with detail that makes a good track. The Kick n Bass are bullies, those two breaks the fu*king house down, not letting the percussion, leads and fx's eggs hatch properly. They smash it to bits.
Build your mix so the fx eggs hatch nicely, and when the KnB comes in, all the elements forms a happy family of sound.
To sum it up:
The moment you hear the KnB, you lose objectiveness and it changes you to the listener, not the composer.
Cheers, hope everyone has a great evening.
  " We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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Mathura
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
16
Posts :
91
Posted : Feb 5, 2016 23:34
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Yeah, in some causes it is knocking the following (possible ideas) to mash...
But for modern "hard-prog-psy" the kick and bass is a "must go" to bring in the samples at the right "libido/body fx break point"...
So for musical (psy) composition its often good to "work" only with the ideas first... |
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knocz
Moderator
Started Topics :
40
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1151
Posted : Feb 7, 2016 21:23
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Great idea! This assures your track is solid even without the beat 
I think the KnB are a part of the whole vibe, but you're right it's too easy to loose focus on the rest of the tune when you have the 2 main elements in your face the whole time..
I think I'm going to try this on my next tune 
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Feb 8, 2016 03:32
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So the Bass player is only allowed to join the party when there's no beer left?
This may seem like I'm trolling, but when you think about it... Right? |
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
204
Posted : Feb 8, 2016 10:29
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For about two years i have been stuck in the loop, cause the knb always made me feel like the track is finished. anything I would add is without effort. In the end I was never happy with the lifeless results - the track having no interesting features.
This time I force myself not to add the knb - even though I am very tempted. At this moment, working on my new track for the last couple of days, I am very impressed with the results. I was able to focus on the smallest detail with my fx, percussion and leads. The whole sound is much more open and you can create a very nice flow without relying on the knb to make it interesting. You kind of overcompensate on the detail of the arrangement which in the end will make the job of the knb not so hard. Story telling also becomes easier.
You should also know your grid locations however, otherwise it's not going to fit right. Otherwise use your metronome.
IMO, this method changed the way I design music and I could not be happier with the progress of my track.
Cheers
" We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Feb 8, 2016 16:45
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That being the case, you should definitely stick to it.
The point I was making (or trying to make) previously, was that both arranging and mixing needs to take all elements into account - how they play and sound together, both in compositional terms and sound wise.
The way I do it myself, is akin to how a band would work. There's always some motion that's driving the track, it can definitely be the bass line but it doesn't have to. I think it's quite important that the parts react to one another in plenty of ways.
Following this logic, I'd say that you prefer to have the story acting as the lead and having the bass just follow it once its done. The only problem I see with this is that in most electronic dance music, everything is mixed around the Kick. Goes without saying, for instance, that I don't just choose some snare that I like, but one that plays well even with just the K&B combo - plays well i.e sounds right together. Also, when mixing things you need to be aware of how much space you need for your low end instruments and where they're most prominent in the spectrum and vice-versa, so as to achieve compromises that will make everything work nicely together. In other words, we mix in context. I can see the potential here, but I fear you'll be doing some form of mash up between two tracks instead of one full track - if that even makes sense.
And I know I make a lot of resampling from this elements and work them in plenty of ways in transitions and breaks, and probably you'll be missing out on that too.
But don't let my words feel like I'm trying to convince you to put aside something that clearly has helped your creativity! Far from it, just some fuel for thought  |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Feb 8, 2016 19:09
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One other thing crossed my mind on this subject.
I like to listen to my compositions in mono every now and then. I feel that the stereo information (i.e. the differences between the two channels) can be very distracting. It's certainly needed for the finished product, to catch the listeners attention, to provide a full and large image, etc, but all the sparkle and agitated stereo stuff can also grab your attention and make you loose focus.
On a similar note, it's a good idea to group tracks and make use of those "solo" and "mute" buttons a lot!
I think the main idea here is that a good track doesn't fall apart if you remove the kick and bass, there's got to be a more pervasive "motif" that's also clearly felt in the other sounds that make up the track, without relying exclusively in the "all pervasive anchor" of the main elements. I do agree with that.
My own experience with this, however, is that sometimes it's good to listen to just the kick and bass combo and the leads, or the drums, or just leads and fx and any such combinations. This helps ensure that all sounds work together to form a coherent puzzle of sound where sounds are not just added for the sake of it, but in a way that they compliment each other. I like to think of this in terms of movement. If there's some motion there, how much do any of the parts need to follow it, in their own terms, so that the whole thing, sounds nice? One can only answer this by listening in context and change things until it all fits together, then move on to something else.
Now the other thing I'd be missing would be resampling. Not that you can't do it after it's all laid out (I mean the structure), but it somehow seems a bit counter intuitive to me. Like, suppose you want to render a small fragment (let's say one beat in length) of both your Kick and Bass, to apply some old school, lo-fi time stretch to it on tops, or some filter automation or whatever. My approach is to render this to audio, either together or separate, and then work on the processing and automation on tops, until it's done, then render it again (to dispense with the extra cpu cycles of the processing) - or process directly on the audio files in cubase if there's no automation involved. Ok, one of the reasons for this is that any further processing will require extra work so that it doesn't break the mix apart. Like, a single 1/128 trigger of your Kick is going to raise the levels there. You can read it on the meters and compensate for this by adjusting gain - this is the easy example, but you get the point.
You'd probably want to adjust your drums, synths and fx to play well with this part too! So there you have it: it's no longer Kick and Bass, but it's sounds made from this elements, that somewhat resemble them, sound like "something has happened to them".
But I'd be lying if I said that it isn't possible to work like that. Certainly is. For one, I've changed the Kick and Bass combo (including all the transitions and post processing that I've talked about) more then once on one of my latest collaboration tracks and it worked out for the better. So... I'd like to listen to one of your tracks made with this approach, even if it's just some on going work in progress if you feel comfortable sharing it. I'm curious!
Cheers |
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
204
Posted : Feb 8, 2016 19:32
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I get your point. It's really just turned around on usual methods. Instead of designing elements to fit with the beat
you make the beat fit with the elements. You'll get a more unique version of music cause the flow of the midrange controls
the vibe. Like a lead guitarist starting the riff and the drums follow.
Nobody is wrong here. I was merely advising on a different perspective.
I also have to add that if you are starting out I would not recommend this, cause you need to learn how everything works with the beat
i.e the whole time I design my sounds I imagine there are a knb playing with it, so I keep the low range open and clean.
I already know where i am going to bring in the bass elements and where I will fade them out. Planning the locations of the puzzle pieces.
Mixing the mid range perfect is the key imo. Without those two it's more do-able.
You later reach a point that the track sounds good without the knb, then when you add it the whole thing comes to life.
You say it would be like mixing two tracks meshed into one ? Is'nt that the case when you add every new element to the track ?
That is the whole point about mixing. Making tiny adjustments on compression, volume and eq, until everything harmonize together
as one.
Everyone has their method that works for them.
Ps. When I am done I will share a link here.
" We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Feb 8, 2016 19:45
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Quote:
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On 2016-02-08 19:32, routingwithin wrote:
Nobody is wrong here. I was merely advising on a different perspective.
Everyone has their method that works for them.
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Exactly!
When I said you'd be mixing two tracks, I didn't mean it as a bad thing. Not necessarily. All good music has some kind of question/answer thing going on, a on going dialogue between the elements.
I can clearly see some benefits on your approach. For one, like you've mentioned, mid range is the key for a solid mix. Second, it helps prevent the same same kick and bass combo with a fest of weird noises on tops. Third, if it works then it works and it surely doesn't matter what other people think of it! Not me nor anyone else.
Forth, I'd still like to listen to it |
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B-recluse
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
147
Posts :
377
Posted : Feb 8, 2016 22:56
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well i get your point ,personly i like to hear the kick and bass and i some cases i turn them off , but when i created a sound i check if it fits with my kick and bass ! i think also you see the kick and bass as a problem ? love them it could help you to keep you flowing . at the end nothig is wrong , if it works for you it works ! namaste |
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knocz
Moderator
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1151
Posted : Feb 9, 2016 02:32
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I think you are all right
I usually want to make a great tune that speaks by itself, that could have a simple Kbb across the whole tune.. but when I actually make it I just get bored and start playing with harmonies, which makes my whole bass just move around (yay it's morning fullon shalala lala land)
It's also possible to make something so abstract that "layering a Kbb on top at the end" would sound just like that: you layered something on top that wasn't a part of the whole tune.
But thenagain, if we simply want to release ourselfs from the Kbb, we could use a simple metronome - guitar players will understand, when you can get a simple static metronome to "groove", you've got something there Or, maybe reduce 10db out of the Kbb stem so it's not in your face..
I would be afraid to leave the Kbb to the very last part of the tune; I most probably wont do that. But it also raises the question of "when should it be introduced?" - and experiment is the key
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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frisbeehead
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
1352
Posted : Feb 9, 2016 07:18
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Yes, in a way we're just debating creative strategies here.
The point I was making here, rather then opposing what's proposed, which quite frankly I wouldn't do, specially when there's someone claiming to have overcome some kind of creative block by using this strategy.
But I must say that it feels a bit weird to me why anyone has to work out an entire track this way when the choice to avoid getting distracted by the kick and bass combo is just a click away (literally, the mute button) and this also allows you to make sure that the synth parts and ambiences and what not work good together on their own. Does it not? That's why you have the option to make groups and folders on your DAW, it's 'cause virtually everyone needs to work out the parts together like this, muting stuff to enable you to focus on just the work at hands is mandatory - everyone does it. Specially when working with large sessions with big track counts, like it's usually the case with psytrance.
Experimentation is indeed the key. But any decent workflow needs to integrate it in a way that's efficient - that is, that you approach it in a focused way, so as to produce results, even when you're just looking to be surprised with randomness, there's plenty of ways to deal with random, some good, some not as good. It's in our best interest as music makers and producers to continually review all this things.
To be totally honest here. I think that besides the psychological effect this strategy has had for one person, it's still a bit weird and may not be the best approach to take in most situations. It can be a good creative challenge. But if you're to retain anything from this that's more universal, is that all major groups of sounds need to somehow reflect the structure and the broad motions of the track, needs to have coherence and to maintain interest.
I can't get my head around this being just as good an approach as any other, I honestly can't. But it's just my opinion though. And I think if we're to be fair here, the resampling point is a rather strong one. Preparation is key to many things. Sometimes it's flat out boring. Like, who really enjoys sampling several notes of some synth, choosing and editing them on an audio editor, making loops for the sustain parts, processing all the notes individually, so forth and so on. And all this tedious work is done solely to circumvent some limitations and problems of synths when dealing with Bass. You do the math. The easiest and fastest way isn't always the better. But it's true that sometimes big technical work can feel a bit of putting when it's about getting some ideas laid down quickly. Templates also help. Channel presets. Even the track import option.
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knocz
Moderator
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1151
Posted : Feb 11, 2016 03:04
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Yeah man totally agree with you! I just spend too much time on the KnB, and I'm not sure how much time I actually do listen to it with the beat muted - and coming to think of it, it doesn't always sound good when the beat drops off during the break down.
Just listening out to other ideas, sucking up info
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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smoker
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
115
Posts :
873
Posted : Feb 11, 2016 22:36
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
204
Posted : Feb 12, 2016 10:00
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Ok so far i have realized the following. It does give you more precision on the mid range. And yes you do more effort designing/synthesizing your sounds. However unfortunately you need to have a type of generic beat of Psy-trance that you can run in the background. To present an example now and then.
I'll have to start from scratch, because when I finished my arrangement(very detailed i must add), the beat that fit best turned it into a drum n bass track.
Think muting and unmuting is my next mission. The lower volume approach would maybe work, but it could mess with mixing and end up giving you more work in the end.
Yes it did not work out like I hoped, however the arrangement I ended up with would never have been so detailed if I kept the beat going.
" We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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