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Composition / Arrangement ./ The Journey
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FungalGrowth
Started Topics :
2
Posts :
4
Posted : Jan 3, 2015 02:56:34
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There's a million tutorials on the psy kick+bassline, but almost nothing on how to compose and arrange the track (the few tutorials on the subject are exceedingly basic) It's the most important part of writing music and I can't even find a thread where people discuss the various techniques and approaches one can take!
So ITT we are going to discuss composition / arrangement. How to create "the Journey" in the track. Feel free to post anything related whether it's how to make a buildup or drop or some abstract compositional techniques using fractals or scripting. The techniques or advice can be for Psytrance or any type of music.
>>> If you're not in for a long rant just reply now. It's gonna get loooong >>>
||| My Background |||
I've been a bedroom producer for 13 years and been pretty down about my results. I feel like I'm going round in circles. While my sounds and tunes have improved somewhat I feel like I've hit a wall when it comes to the composition. I don't even want to produce Psytrance, but rather a blend of all my favourite music genres into somekind of cohesive whole. However just writing good psytrance seems to elude me :/
|||Examples of Complex / multi-layered / weaving Psytrance |||
Here's some examples of the styles that I think are the most elusive and explode my brain as I try to grasp what the songs are doing and how to duplicate the style.
Furious & Guitar Whoop - Ufo On Lfo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q-U9m8QenM
Derango - Secret Surroundings
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t2kp7-p5bM
Osom - Activate Drivers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGbXtRIzXDg
Any advice on trying to compose these styles in particular would be awesome
||| My Approach to my music |||
Here's the way I generally write music. I realise I'm doing the same thing over and over so any advice on how to break out of my habits is most welcome
- I start with the beat or a random sound / synth / technique. I might have some tracks or style in mind that I want to emulate.
- I get a feel for what the track will be like from the tempo and first few sounds. Every single sound defines the atmosphere and feel of the track and it'll evolve as I add / change things. It never matches my original idea (which is generally vague)
- I make a 32 bar loop with whatever synth / sounds. I change things every 32 bars, with completely different loops / sounds / synths. I try to create a progression from the start but the 32 bar loops often don't fit.
- I create variations for the bassline / percussion
- I string together the 32 bar loops I've made, trying to have some kind of progression. The parts don't always fit together, so I rearrange the order of the 32 bar loops until theirs some semblance of the track evolving, rising and falling in intensity
- I add kick drum fills and buildups or breakdowns to blend the parts together
- FML when it sounds like a bunch of disparate elements strung together, it sounds linear and repetitive. Theirs no flow or journey. The track seems to be static.
||| An Example song of mine |||
Here's one of my latest and most complete songs. I've actually changed the track and this is an old version. But somehow I've just made it worse...
You should be able to hear the way I've made it. It sounds very segmented like I strung together totally different 32 bar loops I made randomly... which I guess is exactly what I did. The track doesn't seem to rise or fall in intensity properly and sounds very linear. Any advice would be swell.
https://soundcloud.com/shadowmoses/psyteffectstaticflange-2-04-alt-3-36-131018-5star/s-4Frlx
||| End it all |||
Ok thats it for now. Hopefully this thread will elicit some thoughtfull discussion.
Peace.
  Ðõ ÿõû ţĥîñκ ÿõû¹řê Яëåđÿ¿!? Çħôṁþ õň ťĥìš ßŀûê Øñë. Ĭŧ щíĺĺ §ṁåšħ ÿôûř ḃřåîň PÊЯMÅÑÉÑŦĿ¥..... |
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Xsze
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
657
Posted : Jan 3, 2015 15:37
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On 2015-01-03 02:56:34, FungalGrowth wrote:
There's a million tutorials on the psy kick+bassline, but almost nothing on how to compose and arrange the track (the few tutorials on the subject are exceedingly basic) It's the most important part of writing music and I can't even find a thread where people discuss the various techniques and approaches one can take!
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I believe that search here is not that efficient, but I think it's discussed subject, not as much as k&b, but it's covered nonetheless, even behind writer blocks, workflow and similar, many expanded on their workflow and their creative approach, many work same as you too, nothing new there really either.
Faxi posted something on that matter recently
http://forum.isratrance.com/harmonic-layering-and-hypnotic-trance/
If you call it "journey", than why is there need of talking about it, I understand that k&b is disused because more than decade it's like same thing with slight variations, so people want to nail every smallest aspect&detail and not many have time to actually search&read what is already being discussed, but how to approach creative process isn't that generic, but end result kinda is if you analyze many of released music, so it's obvious, if you want your music among that bunch, you have clear way, if not, than there aren't rules or clear path for you either for composition, arrangement, sounds and even k&b combos, so hence why there isn't major interest in that, it boils down to do your thing or follow other which is working instantly. |
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Ricciardo
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
188
Posted : Jan 5, 2015 11:19
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I know this is a sort of an offtopic, but i wonder how people manage to built songs in cubase or studio one... or any kind of linear daw... where you cant remove the midi parts from the arrangemente view or otherwise they are gone...
Seriously, to make a track i must create every element first and then pick the wons i want to use, and thats why i use pattern based daw's like Flstudio or Ableton Live...
Becuase i want to have a stash of midi clips that latter i will use with instruments and i want to have in an orgnized way...
but as Cubase and the other daw's that followed the same basis were not meant to make EDM or looping music, but to recording...
You only have a single window and you cant have much flexibility in the way you organize your stuff... either the arrangement view tends up to end messy with too much stuff in you dont want to use...
or just like is the most cases, people try to build their music from the beggining to the end in a linear way...
wich means they start simple, from the left, and they start making sounds till the tracks is finish...
Wich i really dont like really, thats horrible, because you are sort of building stuff by randomic causuality and not organizign the way the track will sound in the end...
by making music simply from the left to the right or beggining to finish without testing alternative sounds or searching for intersting stuff you dont create intestersting music...
because making electronic music its also like collecting, you need to collect ideas, find nice sound textures and then try to make them sound interesting in the end, but that should have a type of solid design and logic
its almost like building a house, if you dont plan first the type of the house you want, if you dont plan the amount of rooms you will need and the measures and everything, and if you start building a house by placing a door here, and then a wall and keep going... you will end up with a non fuctional, and non-logical complete ocasional random and ugly house...
And because of that i really dont like linear daw's, because they are really unconfortable to create stuff first but only mix the arrangement and organize the arrangement in the end...
But aparently most of producers dont have the same type of thinking..
that might explain why electronic music is becomig so generic and so repetitive and so unintersting, because producers start making music from o to the end by searching ocasional sounds that make the track sound like the others, but they dont research intersting stuff prior to mixing or arranging...
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fraxi
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
17
Posts :
159
Posted : Jan 5, 2015 12:17
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Bullshit man
people were doing great music for years, writing it directly from the left to the right
Quote:
| by making music simply from the left to the right or beggining to finish without testing alternative sounds or searching for intersting stuff you dont create intestersting music... |
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you can do it with great results using linear, arrangement view
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| that might explain why electronic music is becomig so generic and so repetitive and so unintersting, because producers start making music from o to the end by searching ocasional sounds that make the track sound like the others, but they dont research intersting stuff prior to mixing or arranging... |
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It's not about producers workflow, it's about their laziness
I use ableton live and honestly I didn't find it's session view useful to make complex structures. So I write tracks in arrangement view and I'm very happy with it
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Xsze
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
657
Posted : Jan 5, 2015 14:08
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On 2015-01-05 12:17, fraxi wrote:n
It's not about producers workflow, it's about their laziness
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Exactly, and their lack of knowledge and actual vision, there is like 1 minute of content stretched into 5-8 minute song, that might be the reason why it sounds boring and repetitive, not the actual DAW, IMO writing/composing vanished in today's music big time and poor content outcome is rather obvious, don't blame tools, blame people behind them.
...and there is "making it big" factor too, where it's imperative to sound just like "that" and be among that bunch, so again, I think that individual would make same thing using any DAW
I can see benefit from using Bitwig for example and all that clip launching could inspire some music actually or even some live project, maybe not faster music where timing is crucial, but rather slower experimental one, nonetheless can see benefit from getting more ideas too track wise, but I really don't think it's that crucial or we should blame linear kind of approach for other things, it's personal workflow, great music will come no matter what, some people have clip launchers in their heads, some can't make anything remotely creative even with all that workflow at stake, some people could mix music good with stock plugins and in average room, other's couldn't do it in best room with best gear, it's knowledge and utilizing it with what you got, tools can inspire to some extent, but I don't think they can reach beyond ones actual knowledge, vision and taste. |
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wirakocha
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
112
Posts :
288
Posted : Jan 9, 2015 01:37
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tranevrbas
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
32
Posts :
27
Posted : Jan 9, 2015 03:44
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The success of the song is in the catchy and beautiful melodies and samples, so the arrangement is only helping that matter, it's not crucial.I know many tracks that are fan favorite just because 2-3 second sample that is so nice |
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Xsze
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
657
Posted : Jan 9, 2015 04:13
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On 2015-01-09 03:44, tranevrbas wrote:
The success of the song is in the catchy and beautiful melodies and samples, so the arrangement is only helping that matter, it's not crucial.I know many tracks that are fan favorite just because 2-3 second sample that is so nice
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Yeah, but memorable hooks&licks are more helping out in "how to make it big" kind of way, rather than actually having any actual impact on weight of given content, I'm all for memorable&hooky, I'm just happy person that like going towards light and simplicity more, fun and all, but there is depth of darkness and complexity for others, journey into unknown, deep and mystical, memorable things kinda don't give that impression, they give exactly that known thing you experienced and want to experience again because of it, like choosing unknown dark alley instead of your usual route, so all that in context of this thread is, well known techniques and shortcuts or exploring other possibilities, everything boils down where one wants to go.
 
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routingwithin
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
204
Posted : Jan 9, 2015 10:19
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I usually start off choosing only a few plugins like massive, zeta2, sylenth1, etc - then I run through the patches and save the “best” presets in a folder. After that I load in a random preset, tweak it to give it my own signature (just to put in some work), then I start building loops. I will work on a scale like G-minor and keep to it with every loop I build. Each sound / preset has a unique character, so I’ll try to annunciate the feeling and integrate that into the flow of the loop. Also I keep in mind that every loop should be on the same page, i.e. complementary with the kick-drum.
Each loop should have an end, to let the listener know it’s starting over again- so at the end, i.e. after 4-32 beats it has a change within the pattern.
After I have about 10-20 loops it’s time to start building. Normally it begins with a pad + a delayed lead sound or perc.
For 32-64 beats the whole sound graduates fading in more layers with the lead sound or more percussion hits etc. Adding reverb can also give that wall of sound – when the intensity reaches a point it quickly sucks in and the kick + bass starts with the explosion. It’s important that you carry the k&b with background fx, when playing on their own, giving it some life + interest.
After 8 bars I’ll bring in a sequence or lead sound. At first I keep everything on the root – and as it progresses I introduce more notes within the scale.
Every 32 bars is the next big build up, with the break down introducing new elements and feel to the music. At about 3.5 – 4 min I’ll start filtering out the k&b + perc and hihats, have the big breakdown and compose a nice soothing melody (delayed or arp) to give the guys a little break. 16 bars later and it’s time to get back to work iam afraid, then the whole process starts again from the way I started the intro.
At the end of the day, a psy-trance track to me, is like this big clock. The big/small gears in this clock are the loops that the track consists of, but also, the whole track is a gear on its own.
Cheers
" We are together in this matter you and I, closer to death, yes, closer than i'd like. How do you feel? - There can be no division in our actions, or everything is lost. What affects you affects me. " |
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-=Mandari=-
Mandari
Started Topics :
28
Posts :
655
Posted : Jan 11, 2015 15:48
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to me... the most essential part is to let go of everything i think to know, feel into it and record basically everything instead of writing the midi notes.... it not only gives a more natural feeling to my tune, it also frees my mind of any weird think to death issues... i mean the more i think about it, the more it will sound produced at the end, no matter what lovely sounds are in there... i also have kinda more easy times in developing a story cause i feel into it and kinda feel how it has to go on instantly.... overdub recording track after track essentially´s been the most appealing way to me...
psytrance is all about building and guiding energy. fusion between human and machine.... so its not enough to know how to build up energy, you also have to learn how to guide it and bring up and unleash its full potential. to me, theres no way to easily describe doin this. i think there are not that much tuts about this cause its a very unique task which each artist solves quite differently....
i usually start writing kick/bass combo, the pattern of the bass usually bringing fresh ideas for developing further stuff. from there on its kinda hit n record situation....
sure theres a lot of math and shabooboo one could dive into. but when eaten it will be hard to let go off the stuff you know and just do your thing... at the end its good to know and use as guidelines, but stopped me being creative when i focussed on my track pointing into any fixed direction....
well kinda novel, apologize... cheers 
FUCK GENRES, LOVE MUSIC!!!!
http://soundcloud.com/mandarimedia
http://banyan-records.com |
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Xsze
Started Topics :
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657
Posted : Jan 12, 2015 06:09
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well kinda novel, apologize... cheers
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Don't apologize, wish there is more of it and at this point less of me in all this, I think many will benefit from your words, at least I dig every word, so spot on, useful and inspiring in same time, cheers man  
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B-recluse
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
147
Posts :
377
Posted : Jan 12, 2015 15:18
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i get your point dude ! well my advise is build blocks ! and record a 33 bar loop and duplicate it till the desired time of recording ! then agree with mandari use you feelings and don't think to much in technical stuff like how it supposed to be ! because music is emotion ! the mixing stage is a other story . you could listening to some tracks what you like a start listening how they build the song ! its all about the flow .you can learn about that too ! , in a month or so i got my studio ready and will make a video about arrangement , might help ?music is a journey take it easy practice and practice and one day you got your key to success of making psytrance namaste |
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