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chicken and egg syndrome
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deeplydisturbed
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 13:24
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this questions always been playing on my mind ever since i can remember(which is not very long ago anyway)
do you think that the music which we listen to is the way it is because it enhances the 'trip'?
or the music was made just for the trip?
what came first,the music or the drug?
anyone out there who knows anything about this phenomenon?
would be really intersted to listen to your views.
peace
hope this thread doesnt get deleted coz of the 'd' word!! |
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Psilocibino
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 13:36
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well, i've read that vocalization, wich is one form of music, as strong influence in our mind when your under the influence of psychadelic plants... i dont know what came first, but i believe that psychadelic plants began to be consumed long before any kind of music began to be used as recreation or any kind of ritual...
i think that later, shamans realized the strong impact that sound in is several ways (vocal, rithym, melodies) had in our brains, under hte influence or not of these substances... and his capacity to induce altered states of consciousness!
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deejayridoo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 13:58
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the nature of the chicken and egg phenomenon is that you cannot make out the initial point.
everything inside the system is interlinked.
this is a complex system.
every autopoietic system (that´s a system which generates itself, produces its own organization and maintains and constitutes itself
- all living beings e.g. are autopoietic systems)
is very difficult to predict because of its selfreferentiality (it allways refers to its own state of neuronal situation).
you cannot predict a definite conclusion out of the present state.
therefore we´ll never be able to answer this question. |
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 14:01
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do you think that the music which we listen to is the way it is because it enhances the 'trip'?
or the music was made just for the trip?
When you say "the music which we listen to" are you talking about psytrance and "us", the psytrance listeners or music in general and mankind?
If you ment the first option I think neither of your two options are right. I think the music is the way it's because it evolved in Goa and had a lot to do with hippies living there. But I think it was just a sort of surplus of creativity, not a mean to enhance the trip and definetly not just for the trip.
Now if you ment the second option. I think there are records of found instruments from like 50.000 bc. Don't know when people started to use drugs in order to change their level of consciusness.. So, in short, I don't know 
 "The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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deeplydisturbed
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 14:09
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when i talk bout the music, its bout 'our' music n the kinda music we guys listen to. im not stating that the two go hand in hand, nor am i stating that one cAnt enjoy one without the other.just looking for your ideas and suggestions!
peace |
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daniel duarte
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 14:11
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Lot of years ago the tribes would have rituals.. consuming mind plants and stuff.. and the drums were also present... the repetitive cycle of a beat helped them, above all, jump to the rythm wich acelerated their hearth and therefor making the active chemicals of the plants reach the brain faster.
But, for example, I can reach a very hipnotic state of mind with no drugs, just by listening to repetitive mind music and dancing to it.
But anyway, its obvious that the natural drugs came first... they dont need us to grow. Music needs humans, plants dont. |
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blueOrb
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 14:16
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 15:49
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In the last 2-3 years the music is made for MDMA users - if you use it to enhance any form of 'trip', you just don't know what music is meant for it. There are a few exceptions, but don't expect any oozing acid sounds crawling over your track nowadays. http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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deejayridoo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 17:36
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the question was, what was first - entheogenic substances or psychedelic music.
i say that we´ll never be able to know because those two elements are part of a high complexity and therefore you cannot make out a initial point. if you do so anyway, it´ll be subjective, contingent (could as well be different) and arbitrary
they evolve, each mutually effecting the other(s).
co-evolution...
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Pt.
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 18:43
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What came first? I would say that psychedelic plants/drugs is the reason for psychedelic music in general. psychedelic is all abot the sounds and feelings (ect.) I belive that psymusic was in its origin made for the mind "bend". On drugs or not. But come on.. psyplants/drugs makes it all much more fun and "real".
Experiences and feelings in general gets a whole other aspect on psyplant/drugs..
*personal note*: The first time i ate mushroom, I also listened to Infected for the first time. I had my own little renaissance. I "figured" out that psychedelic music wasn't about the beats and basslines. Its about the sounds and synths. The way they play with your mind. Even the weakest sounds became clear, though the beats and basslines kinda dissapeard. If you listen to good old goa music, you can hear that the beats and basslines are not so.. mmm.. heavy and "there".. They are an "equipment" to make the track go ---> (you know what i'm talking about?) The beats and basslines are put on the track to make it flow and most important for DJ'ing. Make it danceble.
And that tells me that psytrance/goa is made for people on drugs and by people on drugs. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that this is what it's like in ALL cases, but most.
For me, who's reason for liking psychedlic trance in general (there is more to this of cource) is because its another world, drug related or not. I think that the "new" style is a negative thing in some state. Because music like (allthough i like it my self and admits it) Skazi ect ect is music only made for party party party, amphetamin and MDMA anyone?? *going alittle offtopic* This music is not true to the psychedelic substances. People that say that psychedelic drugs in general has nothing to do with Goa/psytrance, in my honest opinion. They are wrong and blind, no personal offence!
And when it comes to psychedlic music in general, like with the trbes in amazonas, africa the east and so on. They took the psyplants for religius purpeses. Where they saw a sign from god. I see a state of mind. People are different. Anyway, so they ate psyplants to get in touch with their god belief. At this time they also figured out that the music + the plants was a great way to trip. Dancing or sitting. Them god, me the experience in general. Thats why i also say that drugs and music go hand in hand  So to sum up my final answer. Psychedelic music is because of drugs!
But everything evolves (good or bad) right?
Psychedelic music for me, is to enhance the trip. I dont know what you, the readers, think when you hear the word trip. But to me trip is something that i can't explain. It goes to deep. My mind is a universe.
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furthur
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 14, 2004 18:51
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There are some interesting passages on this topic in "The Invisible Landscape" by terence and Dennis McKenna dealing with the effects of vocalisations during the onset of the DMT trip, and how you can actually enhance some aspects of the trip by humming in the same frequency as the DMT (as the McKenna brothers are very keen on DMT having its own wavelength). Some very interesting reading if you can find it even taking into account the drawnout chemical passages that are almost impossible to understand for a non-chemist. University libraries will often carry the book.
Load Universe into Cannon. Aim at Brain. Fire.
www.ganesha.ca |
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ZeRo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 15, 2004 02:20
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interesting thread. i think that the music is designed to mimic the alteration of consciousness experienced under the influence of drugs. essentially the music becomes a drug. they coevolved in this manner.
psytrance is powerful because it envelops the mind and body much in the same way that drugs do. when combined with psychedelics the effect can be life changing, but then again so can the music alone and so can the drug alone.
i also think that this topic raises many interesting psychological questions. many users of psychedelics come to associate tripping with the music. for those familiar with pavlovs classical conditioning, listening to trance for many will induce a conditioned response of trance, similar in kind but different in degree to the effects of the drug..
this could be the foundation for the mdma, lsd dichotomy. ie those who first experienced trance+mdma make or prefer this combination, when acid became scarce the music moved in that direction.
gotta go back to studying.
peace toall
ZeRo
ein chadash tachat hashemesh. there is nothing new under the sun. --kohelet. |
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Triptocoma
Inactive User
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Posted : Oct 15, 2004 03:26
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ZeRo, yah man....
music is a drug for people, frequencies has a strong effect on our signal substances, and drum rhythms has a strong effect on our mind aswell...
people always loved to mix drugs.. hehe
todays psytrance does not have an optimal time signature for "tripping" thats my belief...
laters
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deejayridoo
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 15, 2004 12:14
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Quote:
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On 2004-10-15 02:20, ZeRo wrote:
many users of psychedelics come to associate tripping with the music. for those familiar with pavlovs classical conditioning, listening to trance for many will induce a conditioned response of trance, similar in kind but different in degree to the effects of the drug..
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yeah, that´s actually what´s happening.
and i see something, which annoys me very much:
people exaggerating with their drug consumption tend to quit the whole psychedelic lifestyle and the parties as soon as they get tired of them or just have to stop it because of ill health (usually of the psychological type).
i am disappointed of this and would wish that people kept apart those things.
too many people suddenly blaiming this wonderful music for their stupid behavior...
that´s nonsense.
those people are not autonomous at all. |
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deeplydisturbed
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Oct 15, 2004 18:17
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@psytones-thanks for the response buddy.
its true that as for the past few years the music is being made for the chemical....do we call that evolution or degradation?
~peace~ |
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