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Borderline personality disorder!
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 7, 2009 21:05
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On 2009-10-03 19:46, Aluxe wrote:
I kind of hate all these tags doctors put on people when in the end they really don’t understand very much about it at all. It just seems like whomever is acting too crazy will be tagged with one of these “disorders” like BPD. And it’s kind of offensive I think, specially the word “disorder. I mean ... Also I think our society has to finally cross into a new age where we reconnect with our psychic aspects because that’s where a lot of this shit comes from and if we understand it then we will be able to heal many of these so called disorders.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” Krishnamurti
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Your post is ignorant, but partly correct.
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : Oct 7, 2009 22:30
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When I was in Kindergarten, the school administration recommended to my Mom to put me on Ritalin because I would never put down the book i was reading because it was time to play with blocks. (My mother and kindergarten teacher both thought that was nonsense of them to say.) There's certainly a lot out there that people are too happy to throw medications at, because it's easier at the time.
That being said, "crossing over into the new age" doesn't need to mean "the new age of political correctness". Crippled people are crippled. Mentally retarded people are mentally retarded. Disorders are disorders. Bulimics have an eating disorder. Their eating habits have become so out of order that it threatens every aspect of their health. They are not trying to reconnect with their psyche. I've met several crippled, retarded, and otherwise handicapped people who took offense at people sugar coating every term others used to describe them. Yes, there are lots of "special" people who have very special needs, but there's a degree where people easily take this way too far and begin treating them "way too special" than they need... or want. it's actually disempowering to a lot of these people to treat them in this extreme because it implies they have no chance at accomplishing anything on their own, when many of then can! It's just as bad and demeaning to treat these people this way than to treat them like scum for having the issues they deal with in life.
There's definitely a certain boundary where people have every right to be treated like a person, no matter what strengths and weaknesses they have.
I think the best example of what I'm trying to say is that South Park episode with Timmy and the Lords of the Underworld rocking it out onstage in front of the town. If you've seen it, maybe you can relate, and if not... well, I'd recommend watching it.
On "reconnecting with our psychic aspects"... I think there's a lot having to do with the psyche that can be frightening, destructive and dangerous. Ask a heavily schizophrenic person how he feels about reconnecting with his psyche. Ask a war veteran suffering from PTSD who can't be awoken by his wife in the night without him suddenly smashing her face in, and a trip around the block is like a trip through Normandy on D-Day. There's a disorder out there that forces people to shove their hands in their mouths and bite their own fingers off, chew their lips and cheeks and tongues off, completely against their fully functioning, conscious, sane will... they are completely aware of their actions and the consequences yet still cannot stop themselves from doing it and need to be restrained. Ask one of them how they feel about "reconnecting with their psyche". There are some people who NEED help; they don't need to be told that there is nothing wrong with them and that they will start to heal once they start opening up and understanding their inner natures. Lots of these sorts of people have had more glimpses into their inner natures than the rest of us could begin to imagine, and it's not all rainbows and lollipops for them. There simply is no understanding their condition without having been on their level and experienced what they've experienced, and to say that we need to "understand" them instead of "sympathize" with what they are going through is not going to do it. Try to tell them that they don't really have a problem, and they just need to reconnect with their psyche and they will start healing, simple as that (That sort of wordage isn't understanding, it's assumption of understanding... also very dangerous). Try to understand their answers. And please report back with your views then. 
Just sayin'.
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 7, 2009 23:52
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now this is starting to get somewhere...
Great points Axis! Really great...
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 8, 2009 01:08
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Yes Axis thanks for posting that. And thanks Freeflow for the kind words.
Moki I know the disorder isn't in the genes so I'm not worried about that aspect. It is the behavioral patterns she has learned from her mother that concern me.
The difference between my daughter and her mom is, my daughter has a very present father (me!) who loves her and wants to do the right thing for her so she grows to be a healthy human being.
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Not enough information to go on to answer, though borderline's would probably have a tendency toward that.
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 9, 2009 01:42
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rich i can really feel with you, The pain of lies is the worst in my opinion. The pain when you never stop giving to a person who is never honest and even if you question them they still lie
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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725
Posted : Oct 9, 2009 09:11
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I am talking about our society as a whole opening up to the psychic realms, like the realms that shamans and yogis experience which are REAL and it’s a world basically ingored by the mainstream medical institutions. Because there is extraordinary information and knowlege in those realms, the problem is that we are not even open to it. I mean come on, I even sound crazy and not very grounded for even mentioning all this. Which is precisely the mindset that our society is stuck in now. In other words where our collective brain is at the present in regards to all these other energies that shamans and yogis are already connected with.
And the collective brain affects everyone and it is very powerful on the individual, so much that a society can lift someone into the heavens or crush them into despair or madness. That’s why I feel we have to be very careful how we label groups of people, because even the word “disorder” or “retard” or “cripple” is like a mantra or magic spell that will have tremendous power once the collective brain accepts its supposed meaning. So the words, the thoughts, the terms and ideas that our society chooses to live by will feed or suck energy from people, and will make people feel little or big, healthy or sick. Because that group brain is a very powerful force. So we have to be extremely careful how we program it, and start realizing who is programming it now and for what reasons. Because it will very much define our reality, our limitations and what is possible or not.
I actually believe that together we can heal every dissease if our collective brain is connected to something positive, compassionate and with love for all. The problem is that at this point in time our group brain is pretty sick, the program code is not only dysfunctional but purposely manipulated to keep us stupid, fighting against each other and sleeping and unaware of our power to change things. We need to get a new operating system people, the one we have now is full of bugs and viruses and made by the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
And you know some shamans venture into worlds that resemble the worlds experienced by some people with mental disorders, so they might have some key insights because they are able to travel into these worlds without loosing their minds. That’s why I think that yogis and shamans could potentially bring in a totally new perspective about what is really going on in head of people that struggle with extreme mental states. And I think that eventually our society will recognize these dimensions and AMAZING things will come from that, which is my hopeful vision of a new age.
“'A dream dreamt alone remains merely a dream; only when we dream together can this dream come true”
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
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3709
Posted : Oct 10, 2009 00:03
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On 2009-10-09 09:11, Aluxe wrote:
I am talking about our society as a whole opening up to the psychic realms, like the realms that shamans and yogis experience which are REAL and it’s a world basically ingored by the mainstream medical institutions. Because there is extraordinary information and knowlege in those realms, the problem is that we are not even open to it. I mean come on, I even sound crazy and not very grounded for even mentioning all this. Which is precisely the mindset that our society is stuck in now. In other words where our collective brain is at the present in regards to all these other energies that shamans and yogis are already connected with.
And the collective brain affects everyone and it is very powerful on the individual, so much that a society can lift someone into the heavens or crush them into despair or madness. That’s why I feel we have to be very careful how we label groups of people, because even the word “disorder” or “retard” or “cripple” is like a mantra or magic spell that will have tremendous power once the collective brain accepts its supposed meaning. So the words, the thoughts, the terms and ideas that our society chooses to live by will feed or suck energy from people, and will make people feel little or big, healthy or sick. Because that group brain is a very powerful force. So we have to be extremely careful how we program it, and start realizing who is programming it now and for what reasons. Because it will very much define our reality, our limitations and what is possible or not.
I actually believe that together we can heal every dissease if our collective brain is connected to something positive, compassionate and with love for all. The problem is that at this point in time our group brain is pretty sick, the program code is not only dysfunctional but purposely manipulated to keep us stupid, fighting against each other and sleeping and unaware of our power to change things. We need to get a new operating system people, the one we have now is full of bugs and viruses and made by the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
And you know some shamans venture into worlds that resemble the worlds experienced by some people with mental disorders, so they might have some key insights because they are able to travel into these worlds without loosing their minds. That’s why I think that yogis and shamans could potentially bring in a totally new perspective about what is really going on in head of people that struggle with extreme mental states. And I think that eventually our society will recognize these dimensions and AMAZING things will come from that, which is my hopeful vision of a new age.
“'A dream dreamt alone remains merely a dream; only when we dream together can this dream come true”
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Okej! so do you believe that the ones programming it right now knows that it exits? i mean media is one way of programming our heads and politicians and capitalist have big power to influence the society! On a smaller scale family´s also has big power to affect their children! i mean we should look at it from a family point of view, or like a tribe!
Also if we look historically the word "empire" has been with us very long, lets call it "reign of terror" and it still continues, the people with power is playing on peoples fear(mostly for money)! i dont know where it started, but it could be a tribe somewhere, there have been many such tribes, but equally as many to keep the peace also.. but in dualistic point of view both have to exist?
If our collective brain is infected sort to say it will affect us all! Even those with power to change!
I think its time for a change, and to be honest i think it need to happen soon, very soon! and i can tell you that i feel it in my soul and i am willing to either be a leader or follow a leader! And i know there are millions of people that feel the same, but i think that leaders of this sort very quickly gets taken care of by the power that wants to keep this structure, cause they are very afraid that they wont have that kind of power if something good came down!
please point me to the people of liberation? i wanna join forces! i want to know the agenda...
"the people were able to liberate themselves by peaceful means" Of course this is the vision!! and this should be the ultimate goal!
But i tell you i see light everyday in this darkness so its still very much hope i must say...
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RaDioAcTiVe AcIdHeAd
Started Topics :
2
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443
Posted : Oct 11, 2009 06:14
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Both Aluxe and Axis are correct.......
There are crazy psychiatrists terming each and every person with some disorders and druggin them... If u look at the latest edition of DSM manual which explains different disorders and take it and use it on any random person on the road u can say he has atleast some 5-10 disorders... which is really stupid... many ppl have been wrongly labelled..... and i believe most of the ppl labeled to have disorders or have mental problems are completely fine and very interesting n creative...
And yup our collective brain is definitely sick now....
At the same time, like Axis says... there r ppl who NEED help... coz the extent of "craziness" they feel is too very much and they r unable to control their thoughts and are suffereing too much and not able to operate with the norms n standards of the so called society... BUT, drugging them or locking them up in a mental asylum is definitely not the solution which wud enhance their suffering... there needs to be a better way to understand and help them...... Like Aluxe says, these Shamans and Yogis have tremendous knowledge and can help... a new way of psycho therapy without the use of conventional drugs and electrocution n mental asylum n stuff... and a lot of love and understanding from the socoety...
And i guess any average person who thinks he is "perfect" is the greatest disorder i guess... lol... wats life without a little twist 
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
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3709
Posted : Oct 11, 2009 17:22
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Well firstly a person must want to do something about their problems! No other person can fix them, just help with different tools...
people who distort reality too much by telling too many lies, by changing stories and words, who wish other people bad things(which i think we all do sometime in our lifes) but some people do it more often...
people who are ruthless and deceiving more than often.. they are in a bad circle... and its easy to get trapped, the ego is strong!
i got a great quote from a myspace blog from
http://www.myspace.com/gaiana_25
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We are what we think
"All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage."
"All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him."
"For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule."
-Dammaphada"
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Oct 13, 2009 11:55
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On 2009-10-07 21:05, rich wrote:
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On 2009-10-03 19:46, Aluxe wrote:
I kind of hate all these tags doctors put on people when in the end they really don’t understand very much about it at all. It just seems like whomever is acting too crazy will be tagged with one of these “disorders” like BPD. And it’s kind of offensive I think, specially the word “disorder. I mean ... Also I think our society has to finally cross into a new age where we reconnect with our psychic aspects because that’s where a lot of this shit comes from and if we understand it then we will be able to heal many of these so called disorders.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” Krishnamurti
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Your post is ignorant, but partly correct.
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you seriously mean that? or may be my english skills are not enough to get your idea? ignorant?
his post is very insightful and wise.
as always. thanks for being in the isratrance island aluxe. you often make the sun shine here.
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
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1931
Posted : Oct 13, 2009 11:57
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Quote:
| And you know some shamans venture into worlds that resemble the worlds experienced by some people with mental disorders, so they might have some key insights because they are able to travel into these worlds without loosing their minds. That’s why I think that yogis and shamans could potentially bring in a totally new perspective about what is really going on in head of people that struggle with extreme mental states. And I think that eventually our society will recognize these dimensions and AMAZING things will come from that, which is my hopeful vision of a new age. |
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this is also an interesting question. if they know this. i dont believe they do.
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 13, 2009 19:44
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On 2009-10-13 11:55, Moki.Time.Wave.Zero wrote:
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On 2009-10-07 21:05, rich wrote:
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On 2009-10-03 19:46, Aluxe wrote:
I kind of hate all these tags doctors put on people when in the end they really don’t understand very much about it at all. It just seems like whomever is acting too crazy will be tagged with one of these “disorders” like BPD. And it’s kind of offensive I think, specially the word “disorder. I mean ... Also I think our society has to finally cross into a new age where we reconnect with our psychic aspects because that’s where a lot of this shit comes from and if we understand it then we will be able to heal many of these so called disorders.
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” Krishnamurti
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Your post is ignorant, but partly correct.
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you seriously mean that? or may be my english skills are not enough to get your idea? ignorant?
his post is very insightful and wise.
as always. thanks for being in the isratrance island aluxe. you often make the sun shine here.
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He is ignorant of behavioral psychology and sweeps it all under the rug with what seems to be a self righteous attitude that it's all cold hearted lab coats writing prescriptions. That's immature and uneducated, really.
We're not talking about 'crazy people', we're talking about behavioral traits that are found to have a common source.
How a child is raised, for example, can have an affect on how they are later in life. That's all BPD is. It's behavioral traits, usually caused by upbringing and may also include chemical imbalance. And people have it to varying degrees.
I don't at all dismiss or not value the importance of spiritual practice, whether it's meditation, prayer or latihan. That is essential for a healthy human being.
But I do not think that is all one needs!
Just like we don't all become educated simply by meditating. We need to read books, take classes etc.
It's the same with correcting behavior which harms ourselves or others. Sure, meditation and latihan helps, but it also helps to understand why we have this behavior so we can begin to correct it.
For example, I have a tendency towards jealousy. I can do latihan for years but it doesn't help. I need to understand why I am this way even with my current wife who is so devoted to me and our marriage. Is it because of a fear of abandonment? something in my past, in my childhood that instilled a fear of someone leaving me? That's behavioral psychology and is not the same as crazy people getting prescriptions from doctors in lab coats.
So I was offended when Aluxe made such an ignorant generalization about 'disorders'. Behavioral disorders are real and have varying degrees of affect on people, and if they make life difficult for the person or others, then it makes sense to take care of it.
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Oct 13, 2009 21:53
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hm strange, i dont agree with what you say about aluxe. not even slightly. to me he is one of few ppl here with a warm hearted attitude that is far from writing prescriptions.
but ok, it is may be time to finally realize where i am.
btw how do you know that he hasnt read books on behaviour psychology:). his post doesnt logically necesserily deny his background of knowledge. it just shows the bigger perspective. the psychedelic perspective.
as far as your last sentence is concerned - i would repeat:
“It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” Krishnamurti
clear and simple. i personally dont intend to put myself on any treatment just because a couple of ppl ( even if they are more than a couple) think that i have any syndrom. actually i could not really state any syndroms of insanity that i might have. this year i had something strange happening but it was not borderline, it was love.
and i did spend a lot of time with psychology, even in the university, but also in field studies in hospitals. and nevertheless i dont see any behavioural disorders in myself. i even have quite logical behaviour based on a sick society.
and i am not gonna treat myself out of my visions just because of ppl who have no visions and wanna delete mine as well.
and if someone thins i have a behaviour disorders, then please tell this to my projects and degrees:). i am not gonna get rid of anything , and as far as i dont hurt anyone physically, i am not gonna change my way and visions just because i am difficult for others. it is important to stay tuned on your vision.
whatever. jealosy is a bad thing. i have too much of it too. it comes from childhood i think. i grew up totally on my own, never really had anyone to rely on. i think it comes from there. it is a hard thing to handle. i left all my friends without exception because of jealousy and not because of other reasons, even if they were the biggest asses. but anyway i never had your luck with sb who is totally devoted. may be enjoy this moment. others never have this luck.)
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Oct 13, 2009 22:26
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I know Aluxe is cool, I love what he writes. Really good things for sure. But that's not what I was pointing out.
Moki you yourself say you have things like jealousy and you tell how you grew up on your own etc. So do you think growing up that way affected you?
Now realize that you are not the only one who grew up this way! And you are not the only one who it has affected in the same way!
In fact my ex wife grew up this way. From an early age she had to take care of herself. And as she got older she had problems with friends and relationships, trusting people etc.
There are similar patterns in people, depending on a lot of factors of course, but there are general patterns of behavior that can be attributed to particular things.
This is not to say these behaviors inhibit the ability to work in this world (like you are able to do projects etc which is awesome. I'm very impressed with your work, btw). But you also say you have difficulty with relationships. Would you say you are well adjusted? Compared to society or compared to who you want to be?
The Krishnamurti quote is fine and all, but how does it apply to people who just want to have healthy relationships?
Yes we know this society is sick - greed, corruption, power hungry etc. But break it down to the individual people that make up society and what do you find?
People have issues!
They're full of fear, they're jealous, insecure, hurting inside, etc. So what do they need to do? Pray? meditate? Come on.
Like I said, yes of course that helps, but they also need to understand why they are that way, bring it to their consciousness and make choices based on this understanding and new consciousness.
That's all I'm saying. Aluxe's post (as I read it) was saying people don't need to work on their issues and doctors are saying people are sick and prescribing pills. well of course I don't agree with this western medicine approach of popping pills for everything. It's crazy. But it doesn't mean people don't have issues that make their lives or other peoples lives miserable and they shouldn't take care of them.
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
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1931
Posted : Oct 14, 2009 11:08
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ah okey, then i missunderstood you about aluxe
well, but then the main issue is to make a difference between "taking care of disorders by means of conservative psychology" and " taking care for disorders by means of the science of the soul".
lets take jealousy for example. some psychologists say that it is not a disorder, because at the end of the day it turns the sexual act into a more vigourous and energetic activity OR because it is fundamental for the survival of our genes. on the side lots of psychologist claim, that jealousy can turn to a mental disorder if it gets over possesive. and it is true - i have experienced it on myself with my last serious ex ( it was the only case when i managed to " adjust" to a family life for some years. and it can get quite dangerous for the other person as well - cause the jealous partner doesnt even let the other one talk to others and is permanently afraid of being cheated. it is just too much.
so what do we do to heal it? we go to a psychologist and take a few lessons of what is a healthy emotion? or just consider the other side of healing - the healing of the soul?
jealousy is a problem that only the jealous person has. it is just a need to control and nobody else is responsible for this unhealthy need than the jealous person itself.
you know epictetus and the art of living? - > the secret of happiness is to know what you can control and what not.
love is not something you can control. you can make anyone love - it is his decision.
you know what i mean- at the end of the day we need to work on our own soul , instead of following conventional psychologists. learn to trust yourself and to have o fear of abandonment ( jealousy really comes mostly from the childhood, if there was no one to repeat to us how great we are, then we rely only on ourself later to develop a trust and respect on ourselves and if we are not ready with this process - then we will be quite likely very jealous).
whatever, i could write more, but work is calling.
to your answer - no i am desperately bad adjusted to society. but on the other side very true to myself:). i would not like to lose my visions because of a society. and btw i am having a self made one year course of " asocial live" this year, just to develop a more healthy trust on what i do and not to go beyond the borderline every time someone says he doesnt understand me.
about borderline - well, but actually i find it cool to be really able to go beyond the border. i dont know - i would miss this skill if it is gone. i need it so often with other activities.
take care my friend. and btw i personally agree with you that some things need to be cured with psychologists. but then please with psychedelic psychologists - like stanislav grof or the shulgins for example. you remind me, what will be my next video on timewavezero.
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