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Atheism vs. Religion
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AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
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27
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911
Posted : Jan 9, 2009 23:35
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On 2009-01-09 21:40, kameleonpangea36 wrote:
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On 2009-01-09 20:15, ohmshantiohm wrote:
hahahha if this happened in the USA all these right wing christian nuts would flip out!!!
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if this happens in india all these right wing hindu nuts are going to flipp out
!!
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um no offense but I think Atheism mas more opponents in the United States than anywhere else in the world. And no offense intended if you are an American Christian but the conservative (aka right-wing) christians in America have really brought shame to the Christian religion. There are no right-wing hindu nuts,(i wont deny that there are fanatical hindus) in fact "right wing nut" is pretty much an American term and is best applied to, you guessed it right, American nuts!!
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
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2035
Posted : Jan 10, 2009 00:03
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Let's conclude that right wing religious fanatics are everywhere, and wouldn't have liked that bus, and avoid going into a who's fanatics are more fanatic discussion. Thanks.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
911
Posted : Jan 10, 2009 00:18
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yes sorry, its easy to go off-topic in isratrance, i dont have to tell you that lol
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jds
Started Topics :
8
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384
Posted : Jan 10, 2009 01:34
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Am I the only person who finds it weird that all discussions about atheism and religion turn to critique of science? True atheism shouldn't look for answers anywhere IMO, science included. And religion, if truly sound in its faith shouldn't feel intimidated by science.
I admire atheists for making a decision against cultural and societal programming, and I admire people of religious faith for their ability to believe impossible things without question, but in the end neither path really appeals that much to me.
Nihilism is where it's at.
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AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
911
Posted : Jan 10, 2009 01:41
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I'm not so sure about Nihilism, from what I know most Nihilists don't believe in morality. I believe it's important to have some morals in life. However I really dont know that much about Nihilism so i could just be oversimplifying things
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kameleonpangea36
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
537
Posted : Jan 10, 2009 19:15
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um no offense but I think Atheism mas more opponents in the United States than anywhere else in the world. And no offense intended if you are an American Christian but the conservative (aka right-wing) christians in America have really brought shame to the Christian religion. There are no right-wing hindu nuts,(i wont deny that there are fanatical hindus) in fact "right wing nut" is pretty much an American term and is best applied to, you guessed it right, American nuts!!
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hmmmm... if you dont like these 'american nuts' so much why do you live in america?
right wing fanatics are a part of all prominent religions dude. you shouldn't make generalizations or say one is more than the other. For many years way before there was 'conservative right wing corn bread eating americans' was the message of Christ being manipulated. but some of these people you call nuts would give you the shirt off there back if you needed it.
i guess the one good thing with atheism is that there wont be so much traffic in the afterlife!:)
label: www.pureperceptionrecords.org
design: www.designsbymattbryson.com
soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/kameleon-pangea |
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nomadics
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
95
Posted : Jan 11, 2009 00:04
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In all fairness the bus in the video is in fact directed toward fundamental Christian beliefs about the existence of God. What’s the problem with contextualizing the conversation?
The problem at stake for the small population of atheist’s in Western cultures like the US and Britain is that Christian fundamentalism is making its way into the public/social where it does not belong. You’ll see that the title of the article reads “no God nationwide” which suggests this very issue. Specifically tho, for skeptics like Dawkins it’s the issue of teaching creationism in science that is the problem… the problem is not with the moral aspects of Christianity. It certainly taught me humane values of compassion etc (but that is not say it is the only way to learn such values)
Anyways, anyone interested in an objective view at fundamental Christian indoctrination of these so called right wing nuts should check out Jesus Camp.. crazy movie.. no manipulation on the part of the director or producer.. all the nuttiness is genuine.
quantum frog, ca |
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nomadics
Started Topics :
0
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95
Posted : Jan 11, 2009 00:10
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On 2009-01-10 19:15, kameleonpangea36 wrote:
hmmmm... if you dont like these 'american nuts' so much why do you live in america?
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for the same reason we all do my friend, freedom.. just like the founding fathers wanted it. and for someone like Thomas Jefferson, freedom of religion from public affairs was important. like i said the issue is not against people's character, morals or virtue.. we all come about these in our own way. being atheist, christian or hindu has nothing to do with the capacity to be compassionate imo.
quantum frog, ca |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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90
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2268
Posted : Jan 11, 2009 03:07
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On 2009-01-11 00:10, nomadics wrote:
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On 2009-01-10 19:15, kameleonpangea36 wrote:
hmmmm... if you dont like these 'american nuts' so much why do you live in america?
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for the same reason we all do my friend, freedom.. just like the founding fathers wanted it. and for someone like Thomas Jefferson, freedom of religion from public affairs was important. like i said the issue is not against people's character, morals or virtue. |
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You're for freedom, yet you dislike the freedom of people that are "right wing nuts". Despite what you say - you ARE against people's character, morals or virtue. Because their character, morals and virtues are different than your own. The US was constituted on freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Accepting the religious beliefs and rhetoric of these people are a part of that. They are a part of the freedom you speak about, and since you are for freedom, you're just against THEM.
I don't think you are wrong to do so - people judge others according to stereotypes all the time. People who say they don't are lying - it's human nature. Without generalizations we would not be able to cope with the massive amount of information out there. Just don't try and hide that behind belief in some higher ideology. http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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kin beat
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
62
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953
Posted : Jan 11, 2009 03:46
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nah dudes ain´t real
its not about freedom, cuz´ tell me who the fuck does actually pulls it off to the limits before they get banned, arrested, deported or incarcerated???....
it has been mentioned.
- The belief in the existence of God depends on the state of mind of an individual. The desires, expectations and convictions of the believer determine where he will find God. -
stop standing for what you were set up to believe and went through as a child.
THEY LIED!
Get out read, educate and seek freedom but within your own self....
you are light, no need to get enlighted
and dont forget that:
– "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" –
close it already.......
www.instagram.com/ckloro
www.twitter.com/ckloro |
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AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
911
Posted : Jan 11, 2009 04:44
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On 2009-01-10 19:15, kameleonpangea36 wrote:
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um no offense but I think Atheism mas more opponents in the United States than anywhere else in the world. And no offense intended if you are an American Christian but the conservative (aka right-wing) christians in America have really brought shame to the Christian religion. There are no right-wing hindu nuts,(i wont deny that there are fanatical hindus) in fact "right wing nut" is pretty much an American term and is best applied to, you guessed it right, American nuts!!
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hmmmm... if you dont like these 'american nuts' so much why do you live in america?
right wing fanatics are a part of all prominent religions dude. you shouldn't make generalizations or say one is more than the other. For many years way before there was 'conservative right wing corn bread eating americans' was the message of Christ being manipulated. but some of these people you call nuts would give you the shirt off there back if you needed it.
i guess the one good thing with atheism is that there wont be so much traffic in the afterlife!:)
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ok maybe my comment was a bit harsh. but I cant help it if I have something against right-wing conservatives in the USA(i.e.: the people who have run this country for the last 8 years). I feel they interpret the bible in their own way, force their views on others and are opposed to any kind of secularism in this country. And these backward thinking people have been controlling the government (luckily bush will be gone soon) of the country I live in and that affects me. Why should I leave America? And why do you defend people who clearly distort religion and use it as a political tool? You really think Jesus would approve the things the US Government has done in the last 8 years? Of course there are fanatics everywhere, there are also compassionate people everywhere. My only point is that right wing nutjob fanatics of America are the ones who have had the power for the last 8 years. And since America is the most powerful country that affects the whole world. Its the perfect example of what can happen when religion gets tied up into government and why Secularism is important.
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
234
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3803
Posted : Jan 11, 2009 23:18
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ohmshantiohm said:
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So is religion a major cause for the world's problems? I agree that it is, but only because people blindly follow religion and when it comes to thinking for themselves most people are just ignorant (trust me, I live in America, I am well accustomed to being around ignorant people). I also feel that deep inside some people enjoy having some kind of vendetta against another religious group. Its as if it feeds their own ego making them feel superior to all others. What do you think?
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Before we can agree or disagree about: ”if religion is a major cause for the world’s problems today” we have to agree on what those problems might be.
Isao said: (about god)
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To me it has equal chance to exist or not. It can't be proven that it does the same way it can't be proven that it doesn't - in any case i can't be sure, so i'll never say "it doesn't exist and if you think it does you're wrong", and vice versa.
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It’s impossible to disprove the existence of god just like it’s let’s say very difficult to disprove the existence of the celestial teapot. Conclusion not to be withdrawn is that the celestial teapot is just as likely to exist and not exist. Odds far favour the non-existence of the teapot somewhere between Earth and Mars revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit just like they favour the non-existence of god and Father Christmas.
Tryptagon said:
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i've read the bible and can say for a fact that i missed the line that said start a war with your neighbour.
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As far as I know the god of the old testament pretty much orders the Israelites to commit genocide and stuff over and over. Here’s one passage: ”Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” And like half the population of this planet reckons this god character is loving!
shahar said:
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If you look into it, you see that for a lot of modern people, science is just a new religion, a new set of beliefs.
It is inherent to our existence as humans to not know. We can never have a true understanding of how the universe operates, as we are only infinitesimal fractures of it. It is not possible for a small fracture to totally comprehend the whole.
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I have no idea how far we are from a mathematical/physical model that explains the Universe. If, let’s say 50 years from now we hear about such a model in the news and it’s supported by like a thousand honored cutting edge mathematicians and physicians I’d be pretty confident to believe in it without understanding the underlying math myself. This belief however would be nothing like the blind faith of religions. Out of this model might come theories of other things like for example some particles that we’ve not yet seen. Tests are developed and theories are put on trial and they hold or fail. How do you put religious beliefs on trial? It’s been done (also the sad way). Read about for example the prayer experiment. Guess what? Prayer failed. I've never heard of a "successful" study that has confirmed the existence of angels or something. Anywas back to failed prayer experiment. Did religions ditch prayer? Nope. They don't evolve and improve. They're static. Science as a religion to a lot of modern people hypothesis I kind of agree with. It’s true, a lot of people really don’t understand how for example the theory of evolution goes but believe in it anyways. We've got like 5000 members here, but I doubt even 1% understand what takes place in for example meiosis and what is its relation to the theory. Kind of like I would be with the hypothetical model for the Universe. Doesn’t make science religion thou. Science evolves and advances no matter what laymen believe in.
Kaz said:
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IMO, physics is less of a rational belief than religion. Quoting Occam's Razor ("Aal other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best"), physics is a worse philosophy than religion.
In religion there is just one unexplainable force, God/Gods/Spirits/etc. In physics we have four unprovable, mystical, powers (the small and large atomic forces, electromagnetism and gravity), and one underlying assumption (mathematics is not flawed). Philosophically, that translates to religion being far more plausible.
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Aren’t the fundamental interactions under constant major research? Just because you can’t explain it now, does not mean that you can’t explain it ever. Also, as far as I know there are some rather logical explanations to why the Universe is the way it is. Then you just say that god is more plausible. How complex would god have to be in order to (make a list of all things you think god can do/did). What made god? God is infinitely more complex explanation when you start to think how god could possibly work. Your "logical" god explanation to Universe is like creationism explanation to life. On the surface creationism explanation is so much more simple than abiogenesis and evolution of life. However when you start to think about it and take a look at all the supporting evidence for evolution it becomes quite clear that it was no god. And that is not just because of the evidence, but also because of the infinite complexity that the god explanation requires.
ouroboros said:
God = Energy = a lump of coal = a liter of gasoline = 1,1 €
kameleonpangea36 said:
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atheism seems to be so limiting to the mind to me, as ohmshantiohm said I cant imagine not having faith in a Greater Designer. Science changes every 50 years, and even more every 200 years, how can you have faith in that?
My opinion: God is inside all of us, yet if we dont see him, how can he see us?
Did a painting come about with no painter? did a building come about with no architect? then how has this universe come about with no designer or plan?
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Atheism limiting to the mind? I don’t think anything is more limiting to the mind than the ”god did it” mentality. I’m sure you’ve heard before why the "science changes over time argument" is bad. Anyways I won’t shove it up your face. Instead I wonder how on Earth you can not doubt books that have been written a long time ago and are full of contradictions and cherry on top: mostly been proven to be just nonsense. As to your finishing statement: then how has this designer or plan come about?
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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911
Posted : Jan 11, 2009 23:56
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traveller
IsraTrance Senior Member
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234
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3803
Posted : Jan 12, 2009 01:55
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Earth with its amazing biodiversity is enormously complex system in which the biosphere interacts with the abiotic planet and the solar system. Think of the incredibly networked feedbacks between different parts of the biosphere in different ecosystems. The networks with amazingly complex direct and indirect feedbacks and pathways in which the aboveground animals and microbes interact thru plants with the below and biota in it. And all the amazing aquatic ecosystems and their interactions with atmospheric and planetary events. And anyways all this is just so amazingly complex. The only logical explanation to life on Earth today is that it evolved. And lots of people indeed believe that it evolved instead of being created. Now the thing is that to imagine a being that not only creates Earth and life, but also creates the Universe and fine tunes fundamental forces and constants and general laws and logics of how things will be. How could a being that could do this possibly exist? There's this guy (Alan Guth) who predicts that in time humans will be able to create new Universes in laboratories. He says it would take 10^37 seconds for them to disconnect from ours. Haha imagine the mathematics involved in this..
Anyways if you want to worship something worship the stars (not Hollywood  ). After all we're born of them. What better way to worship them, than trying to understand them and everything there is because of them.
"The dinosaurs became extinct because they didn't have a space program."
- Larry Niven |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
90
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2268
Posted : Jan 12, 2009 19:13
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On 2009-01-11 23:18, traveller wrote:
Kaz said:
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IMO, physics is less of a rational belief than religion. Quoting Occam's Razor ("Aal other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best"), physics is a worse philosophy than religion.
In religion there is just one unexplainable force, God/Gods/Spirits/etc. In physics we have four unprovable, mystical, powers (the small and large atomic forces, electromagnetism and gravity), and one underlying assumption (mathematics is not flawed). Philosophically, that translates to religion being far more plausible.
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Aren’t the fundamental interactions under constant major research? Just because you can’t explain it now, does not mean that you can’t explain it ever. Also, as far as I know there are some rather logical explanations to why the Universe is the way it is. Then you just say that god is more plausible. How complex would god have to be in order to (make a list of all things you think god can do/did). What made god? God is infinitely more complex explanation when you start to think how god could possibly work. Your "logical" god explanation to Universe is like creationism explanation to life. On the surface creationism explanation is so much more simple than abiogenesis and evolution of life. However when you start to think about it and take a look at all the supporting evidence for evolution it becomes quite clear that it was no god. And that is not just because of the evidence, but also because of the infinite complexity that the god explanation requires. |
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I don't think God requires much of an explanation. Not only that - I can define God on strict physical terms making him an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent being. The fact that these forces are observed and studied does not make them less unexplainable. And when those are solved, we still have a load of bigger questions left open due to mathematical discrepancies between various theories (supposedly - solved by String Theory, a theory that people have not even been able to imagine an experiment that can somehow relate to it, and a theory that leaves much more questions than it solves).
It is not that I'm a religious person, but rather that physics is very far from explaining the way the universe works. Particle physics explains the creation small particles as "created through the fields of the small atomic force", meaning that matter is created by a force we cannot explain. It's a "there be dragons" explanation (when the maps of the world did not cover it all, that was one of the sentences used to describe the areas that were not yet charted). Physics as we know it today is NOT as solid as people think it is, and even if it were, it would not refute God's existence. There are loads of other areas where it's not much better than voodoo.
The biggest question in the philosophy of physics is a very simple one - does the universe really work on a basis that can be explained by mathematics? The answer is "probably not".
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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