| Author
|
Atheism vs. Religion
|
AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
911
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 01:11
|
@ Kaz: very good point about physics being less of a rational belief than religion. I really havent even thought about it from that POV, really interesting. And thank you for dissecting ouroboros post, lol that was quite entertaining.
@Ouroboros: you are free man to believe whatever you want but I really doubt many people would share your views on this topic.
I suppose the biggest reason though for me believing in religion is like Kameleon said, if there is no god, how did this universe come to be. As pointed out earlier in the discussion everything we know about physics is so limited. Thats why it is impossible for me to deny the existence of god.
|
|
|
Isao
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
16
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 02:22
|
Quote:
|
On 2009-01-07 00:56, ohmshantiohm wrote:
@Isao:
...
But I have to point out you say that you have no beliefs, but you must have some beliefs, like you believe in living a fulfilling life. Which is what all religions are basically about in the end.
...
|
|
Maybe you're right, i don't know.
But i have the feeling that i'm not "believing" in living a fulfilling life - the only thing i seek is happiness (mainly through love from the beloved ones) and i guess you can't truly be happy if you don't feel fulfilled.
I don't believe nor do i have faith in anything, i just go toward things and ppl that are interesting me and thats it, i don't try to achieve anything special aside of trying to reach a point where i'll be able to be proud of the human being i am and happy with the life i'm leading/i led.
If anything, the only things i truly believe in are the things i experienced myself - but in that case i will *know* and not *believe*.
To be honest i've never really thought about it that much.
My way of thinking is that i'll never be able to know until i experience it, so i'm not going to bother wondering about it until that time (when i'll experience it, if i ever do).
In any case, i wouldn't change anything i'm doing in my life if i suddenly was convinced that there is a god or any kind of "greater consciousness".
I live according to what makes sense to me, then "whatever will be, will be".
As for your question about the origin of universe from an "atheist" point of view.. well i can't answer you (not that it bothers me to not know the truth about it), but i have the same question for you.. in the same way i can't understand where the first atomes are coming from, i also can't understand where a god (be it of matter or "consciousness") would come from as well.
To shahar: I agree with pretty much everything you wrote, and thanks for quoting those wise words from Socrates.
Best regards!
|
|
|
|
kameleonpangea36
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
537
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 03:03
|
Quote:
|
On 2009-01-07 00:56, ohmshantiohm wrote:
(and no offence to any christianss, but there has been a lot of abuse of Church power in the world's history).
What I dont see though is how there can be so much fighting between these three groups of people: Jews, Christians, Muslims. And supposedly the cause for their fighting is religion, but in the end all three have very very similar beliefs.
|
|
a. because unwanted guest snuck in the backdoor.
b. a good way to look at it is like two magnets... try to put north and north together it doesnt work..
anytime there are similarities yet subtle differences there will will always be conflict.
label: www.pureperceptionrecords.org
design: www.designsbymattbryson.com
soundcloud: http://soundcloud.com/kameleon-pangea |
|
|
|
rich
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
103
Posts :
2184
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 07:58
|
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same root. Abraham.
They are not opposed like magnets. That statement is pretty ignorant, though I can see how one would say that given their history over the years in the hands of men.
The Old Testament is based on the Torah, the Holy Quoran speaks at great length of the prophet Jesus Christ.
People have been abusing religion since it's inception, but that doesn't need to overshadow the good they have given and the structure for many people to lead a good life.
btw, shouldn't this topic really be titled Atheism vs Spirituality?
Thanks
|
|
|
|
nomadics
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
95
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 22:11
|
Nice discussion. some damn intelligent trancers out there! So I grew up Catholic and Christian and my days as a Christian were unfortunately pretty hardcore. Over the years I’ve grown fond of the term atheism and consider myself one. but like anything, each one of us will have a personal understanding, a perspective, about what atheism stands for. In fact one of the reasons I like the term is because it can stand for so many things for so many people. In science, it could stand as indifference to the subject of proving “God” empirically.. In philosophy, it could stand against the metaphysical arguments about “God..” From a social/ethical perspective, it could stand against the values of religious systems. So one atheist might say he does not believe in all of these and another atheist might only reject the first two, believing that the ethical principles are worth keeping.
Personally, the heart of my atheism is indifference to scientific and theoretical beliefs about God/s. Sure it can be much simpler to explain the nature of reality in terms of a god (though I don’t think this is what Occam’s Razor is all about) but that does not make it a good explanation. For example testability would be an important factor to also consider. But for me all this does not mean that believing in one or several gods cannot fulfill some sort of private meaning. Shahar brought in an important distinction that I think holds very true, that there are personal and social aspects of religious beliefs.
Quote:
|
On 2009-01-06 08:19, shahar wrote:
Religion has many aspects to it, and relating to our discussion there are two that need to be noted. There's the personal aspect, which has a lot to do with belief, and there's the structural social aspect. In the structural social aspect, religion is just a social structure, like any other social structure which governs human societies- like nations or tribes, for example.
|
|
quantum frog, ca |
|
|
|
nomadics
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
95
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 22:22
|
I noticed there wasn’t a specific religion in mind for the discussion. but I think it is mad important to have something specific in mind. even though I grew up with the judeo-christian stuff, I always had an interest in Buddhism. In this point in my life, I haven’t found a problem accepting certain Buddhist and Hindu beliefs into my atheistic life- due in large part to my growing involvement in this wonderful psychedelic community heh.. For me these are more philosophies than they are religions. They do not emphasize the existence of an anthropomorphic God as they do personal enlightenment in this life, now. Christianity, from my experience, seeks “salvation” to a higher anthropomorphized reality with God in a way that devalues this life, now.
In either case, atheist or theist, the goal of having a meaningful life can be achieved. The means by which the goal of a meaningful life is satisfied can vary so much. And fortunately, it can be done without spirituality. I say fortunately because, for the atheist, the fact “God” is not testable and unprovable does not mean they are left in a bitter life. I think existential writers made out a good case that a secular, atheistic life can thrive with meaning. in fact, an atheist can live well off knowing that all there is to do is create meaning for oneself in this life. Meaningful, fulfilling lives are not restricted to those who are spiritual.
quantum frog, ca |
|
|
|
rich
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
103
Posts :
2184
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 22:40
|
Quote:
|
On 2009-01-07 22:22, nomadics wrote:
Meaningful, fulfilling lives are not restricted to those who are spiritual.
|
|
Very good point. Which can of course lead to a discussion of 'what is spiritual'?
I like to think that living a 'meaningful, fulfilling' life is indeed one which is full of 'spirit', so I have no issue calling it 'spiritual' 
|
|
|
|
nomadics
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
95
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 22:50
|
exactly, the spirits are many and they manifest wildly despite what religion one is or is not. that i have come to learn from all of you, not scripture.
cheers
quantum frog, ca |
|
|
|
ouroboros
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
874
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 23:01
|
yes...its all abt perspective, abt your perspective. And about all that i said in my earlier post, I no where wish for others to share my views or my opinions...because some where or the other our views would collide.
The idea is to look at the bigger picture. If you and me and a few others believe in something and would abide by the rules of it, that itself turns into a religion. And the question arises over here is.....What does my or your religion have to say??? Are we looking at the bigger picture to what these religions have to say??? Coz as far as I think every religion has the same message. So being an atheist itself makes u a person of religion. Because something that you believe in and that you follow truly is a religion in itself. I would agree with what ‘shahar’ n ‘rich’ had to say….religion is just a social structure, a set of rules to lead a good life. To help you live life as a human being.
I am a Hindu by birth, and we Hindu's have as many as thousands of Gods. Each and every God has its own story, and every story has something or other to say. But if looked upon closely every story of that particular God has been passing on the same basic principles of nature and its life. Almost all religions were created by laying down simple laws of nature. The simple morals that are taught to us in our primary schooling are the ones we tend to forget as we grow up. And these same morals are all that has been there in our religions. http://www.myspace.com/musicouroboros
**treat ur mind like a bad neighbourhood - dont go thr alone** |
|
|
|
ouroboros
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
25
Posts :
874
Posted : Jan 7, 2009 23:01
|
So coming back to what I had to say in my earlier post…where I had mentioned about Ontologists and their belief. What some of us believe in, is God, while some believe in the opposite. For science the only thing that exists is energy. Energy that is present in all forms, all around us and within us.
So for me, I would say…God = Energy & Energy = God. While believers rejoice in God as an all-pervasive spirit, there are others who question His existence. The atheistic argument denying the existence of God is as tenuous as the claim that you were born out of thin air. So religion is nothing but what you firmly believe in.
Earth, water, fire, wind, sky, the astral bodies, dawn, night, thunderstorms and lightning are all worshiped and deified in Hinduism. If God is 'all’, then where is his abode? God or the Supreme One is a universal and infinite spirit. He pervades the cosmos. He is present in all creation. You can feel his presence in trees, stones and animals. God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient. The Yajur Veda affirms the omnipresence of God: Isavasyam idam sarvam .
The belief in the existence of God depends on the state of mind of an individual. The desires, expectations and convictions of the believer determine where he will find God. The following mythological incident helps illustrate this point.
King Hiranyakashapu, an atheist, asked his son Prahlada, an ardent devotee of Lord Vishnu, if his Lord was present in a particular pillar. Prahlada replied in the affirmative. Whereupon, the infuriated king struck the pillar and Lord Vishnu appeared in the form of Narasimha . The moral of the story is that the Supreme One’s presence will be felt in every walk of life, wherever you look for Him, provided you have unflinching faith. And this, Prahlada had in abundance.
Faith in God has sustained mankind for centuries and has fulfilled a practical necessity in our lives. Polytheism in the Hindu pantheon has accommodated a galaxy of gods and goddesses; and devotees choose to propitiate the deity of their choice. That’s why propitiating one’s personal God is a common practice.
Lord Krishna declares in the Bhagavad Gita that He, the Supreme Lord, will respond to devotees regardless of the form in which they worship Him and that He, the Supreme Lord, will approach the devotee in whichever form the devotee expects to be approached. "In whatever way men approach me, even so do I go to them. My path do men tread in all ways, O Arjuna. Those who long for success in action in this sacrifice to the gods, because success is quickly attained by men through (such) action"
http://www.myspace.com/musicouroboros
**treat ur mind like a bad neighbourhood - dont go thr alone** |
|
|
|
kin beat
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
62
Posts :
953
Posted : Jan 8, 2009 02:14
|
|
AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
911
Posted : Jan 8, 2009 09:04
|
Quote:
|
On 2009-01-07 01:11, ohmshantiohm wrote:
@Ouroboros: you are free man to believe whatever you want but I really doubt many people would share your views on this topic.
|
|
after smokin one and chillin a bit i released this was quite rude on my part and I apologize for it. I actually agree with some of your points in your more recent post.
[quote]
On 2009-01-07 02:22, Isao wrote:
Quote:
|
As for your question about the origin of universe from an "atheist" point of view.. well i can't answer you (not that it bothers me to not know the truth about it), but i have the same question for you.. in the same way i can't understand where the first atomes are coming from, i also can't understand where a god (be it of matter or "consciousness") would come from as well.
|
|
Agreed. Here is something that offers a Vedic perspective:
In the beginning there was neither existence nor non- existence; there was no atmosphere, no sky, and no realm beyond the sky. What power was there? Where was that power? Who was that power? Was it finite or infinite?
There was neither death nor immortality. There was nothing to distinguish night from day. There was no wind or breath. God alone breathed by his own energy. Other than God there was nothing.
In the beginning darkness was swathed in darkness. All was liquid and formless. God was clothed in emptiness.
Then fire arose within God; and in the fire arose love. This was the seed of the soul. Sages have found this seed within their hearts; they have discovered that it is the bond between existence and non-existence.
Who really knows what happened? Who can describe it? How were things produced? Where was creation born? When the universe was created, the one became many. Who knows how this occurred?
Did creation happen at God's command, or did it happen without his command? He looks down upon creation from the highest heaven. Only he knows the answer -or perhaps he does not know.
Rig Veda 10:129.1-7
the origin of it all can really boggle the mind.
|
|
|
|
shahar
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
155
Posts :
2035
Posted : Jan 9, 2009 09:09
|
|
AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
27
Posts :
911
Posted : Jan 9, 2009 20:15
|
hahahha if this happened in the USA all these right wing christian nuts would flip out!!!
|
|
|
|
kameleonpangea36
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
77
Posts :
537
Posted : Jan 9, 2009 21:40
|
|
|
