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You can't fix it in the mix!
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br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Apr 27, 2005 11:10
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Let's put it this way--the further down the road you get, the harder it becomes to turn around. So fixing after itr gets back from the pressing plant is the hardest,  , fixing in mastering second hardest, in mixing third, and so on.
The "can't fix it in the mix" phrase originated in the acoustic/electric recording world and not really electronic, so to a large extent I disagree with it when it comes to electronica, mostly because the MIX and the RECORDING phases are often times the same, ie, you mix while you record, and the mixing phase is integral to the songwriting/recording aspect.
So you CAN fix it in the mix, just open the VSTi (which if course, you haven't frozen because you have sooooo much CPU! ) and adjust it.
Make sense?
If you record a bassist direct, and you clip his signal, and he flies back to San Diego, and then you go to mix the song, you can't fix it in the mix. But this does not apply to electronic music where the signal source is still present at the time of mixing.
It remains true in all forms of music, however, that you can't actually "fix" a problem with an individual instrument while you are mastering the stereo mix. You can "reduce" it and "mask" it, but not perfectly fix it. As long as one other instrument is playing at the same time, it is not theoretically possible, because isolation (the mix phase) is necessary to truly FIX one problem without creating another (even if the new problem is almost inaudible, like some nearly inaudible phase problem.) |
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satorirazor
Started Topics :
0
Posts :
26
Posted : Apr 27, 2005 11:58
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Oh and last: If you compress to much, you'll sound like any other idiot boy-band on the local hitradio. No dynamics, no depth, no fun, no good – but hey, at least you'll spare the audience the bad experience, because they will tune out soon - ears get really tired from listening to overcompressed radio-ready music, unless on a car-stereo 
- I know I probably stepped on a lot of toes here, but let's hear some opinions. My knowledge of compressors, EQ and such is by no means perfect, and this is just a personal opinion – I will respect yours, but hold the right to disagree...
Not is my either, but i think i agree whit u!
[/quote]
 Imagine if life was a trip, and you where the passanger. |
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UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Apr 27, 2005 13:42
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br0d, I think the old saying is still valid. We might not usualy record instruments in electronic music (Although Ott will probably disgaree ), but we can compare that process to choosing the right sounds and tweaking the parameters of the synths in the right way.
Although the process is blured, we can still make a distinction between the compositional aspects of making electronic music (choosing samples, creating sounds, sequencing those samples and sounds) and the mixing aspects (changing levels, EQuing, compressing, panning).
Anyway, I think Amygdala's point was quite clear and I agree with him. 
UnderTow |
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sy000321
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
46
Posts :
1142
Posted : Apr 27, 2005 16:23
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Couldn't resist to participate and share some of the controversy...
First, i'm new to mixing and diggin' out some tips here and there and ALWAYS try to make the most of them by keeping a mental list and coming to them everythime i've got the chance to experiment or think that something could be fixed or improved...
Now, i've recently started a thread in another forum "Why i need to compress the Bass" and i must say that most sugestion on VSTs, settings and other where of little help, but still i'll keep on trying (i just might strick gold someday, somehow).
Still i thank other people for their sugestions because when we are clueless as i often am in a subject some different ideas help you to experiment and achieve results.
To my knowledge compression is of very little use in Synth bass unless you don't have good envelopes (and then your fucked) or havent got the slightst idea of what you're using.
If you're recording a Bass Player then it's usefull to control sustain, differente volumes in notes (pleople arent computers or synths, ya know)... but in synth bass (real synth, vst or hardware, no sample payer) it's fucking idiotic...
At most you could use the compressor to make the kick and bass volumes similar (using the compressor in a group).
EQ is another question... EQ is usefull but cannot be overused or else will muddy the mix (when boosting fundamentals) or simply kill the sound (most sounds are alive only with lot's of strange frqs than shouldn't be there, that's why there are so many different sanres, hats, cymbs, kicks, leads, etc).
The most valuable tool are always your ears, but we'll take our time to develop them, there's no free upgrade: we have to teach them whats wrong and right.
I remember when i uploaded a track to show in the new tracks section with all freqs bellow 80Hz (+/-) cut... today it sounds to e like the whole track it's a break... but at the moment i didn't had monitoring... and could not hear what was missing... (my life changed with mt alesis, i re-discovered music, i shall say).
Sometimes we have to produce shit and if we're brave enough to accept it was shit learn from it and immprove once again... and be cool with the fact that it can be shit once again... and we still have to improve...
I think even good engineers will find stuff they need to get good with, for most of us, without solid education on this subject we have much more to learn everytime....
Trends will always come and go... EQ, don't EQ, compress the master, group, bass, kick, don't compress, delay, don't delay, reverb, dont reverb, cut the note, don't cut the note, 145 bmps, 142 bmps, 146 bmps, 148 bmps, 136 bmps, master, don't master, nord, virus, andromeda, disco dsp, Z3ta, waves, etc, etc, etc
Hopefully we'll live throught this all and learn from most mistakes we make...
And tools are always tools, they depend on you to make good with them...
joao
roll a joint or STFU :) |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Apr 28, 2005 00:09
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I agree with what brod says and creating sequenced electronic music is a very different process compared to traditional studio recording.
There is much more ways to approach it and less rules need to be applied.
As I understand the phrase "you can't fix it in the mix" though it is even more applicable for electronic music even if it's harder to separate the processes.
In electronic music the mixing "fixing" should be reduced because the control you have when you act as an instrumentalist.
From my personal experience I have more and more found that the traditional approaches being quite efficient and inspiring for me to work in many ways.
When you are acting as both instrumentalist and producer in an electronic studio it becomes hard to visualise the process in the context of a tradtional studio environment.
For instrumentalists sometimes the creation of the sound involves EQ and insert fx like compressor, phaser and chorus.
Guitarists and bass players have EQ on their amps and fx pedals that they use to shape their sound in a creative way.
A good singer can control their ampltude with their voice and microphone distance.
If the gutarists have bad sound from their amps and the singer a weak voice and bad microphone technique will very hard work with mixing it and it will not sound very good in the end.
If you have amazing musicians there will be very little work to do in the mixing stage and it will sound great.
So as an electronic producer I feel I'm better of focusing on that I am foremost an instrumentalist.
A guitarist need to know what guitar he like the sound from. what amp sound good with it, what fx pedals to use and what setting they should be on.
He play the takes and is out of the studio and if he don't make an extremly bad take there is no replacing of notes here and there.
It might be very compressed or distorted and serverly EQ'd if thats a part of the sound he wanted.
Sure it's a bit of producer in every guitarist and the way he aquire a good sound.
A lot of discussions is about how to EQ and compress your kick drum or bass sound.
In the instrumentalist approach it is about what drums or basses you use, what amp and what microphone it's recorded with etc.
If you have people saying "that'll be fine with some compression and/or EQ" you are either dealing with a drummer with not so good sound or a not so good producer.
Creation of sound can involve EQ and compression but they are used as part of the creative process and not done afterwards to less than ideal sounds when you try to fit them into a coherent track.
So to sum up...the focus on mixing by compressing and EQ'ing your sounds seems a bit misplaced for me.
If you know how to create the sounds you like there is hardly no mixing to be done.
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Tomer
Yotopia
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8
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308
Posted : Apr 28, 2005 09:49
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the best Compression that you can make is when you dont hear it compressed ...
it's all about level & dynamics , it shouldnt (& it wouldnt) make shitty sound ,sound perfect , but for sure it can help to make more solid dynamics in a part
& remember what's written above ! good compression should do the work without you notice that the part is compressed
cheers visit us on myspace.com/yotopia |
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
797
Posted : Apr 28, 2005 12:21
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Quote:
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On 2005-04-28 09:49, Tomer wrote:
the best Compression that you can make is when you dont hear it compressed ...
...& remember what's written above ! good compression should do the work without you notice that the part is compressed
cheers
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Disagree.
Daft Punk tunes sound slamming and you can hear their mixes pumping all over the place.
Me>You |
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phobium
Phobium
Started Topics :
14
Posts :
718
Posted : Apr 28, 2005 13:32
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Quote:
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On 2005-04-28 12:21, 14-year old e-tard wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-04-28 09:49, Tomer wrote:
the best Compression that you can make is when you dont hear it compressed ...
...& remember what's written above ! good compression should do the work without you notice that the part is compressed
cheers
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Disagree.
Daft Punk tunes sound slamming and you can hear their mixes pumping all over the place.
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That's because it's used in a artistic way, as a lot of house producers are doing these days. Techno producers have been doing that for many many years. However, I think most people here are talking about compression when it comes to psytrance.
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14-year old e-tard
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
797
Posted : Apr 28, 2005 14:16
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Yes, but it just goes to say that the best compression effect is not always the most transparent.
Techno, house, breakbeat, trance, whatever...it's all kicks pulling down the rest of the mix and I love the way it sounds on any kind of dancefloor material.
Anyway, have a listen to Planet B.E.N.'s Silver album.
Me>You |
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
60
Posts :
3709
Posted : Apr 29, 2005 03:02
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just some thoughts,
in some music today i hear not so well sculptured sounds which are being "over"compressed so that you can hear better how sloopy made they are..
a sound picture with everything dead flat will most likley feel too mechanic and tiresome!
my though about this is that alot of this stuff comes from new artists that has fallen for the trend "loud is best"
i think that we need to step away form the loudness and get the smoothness back..
really we all got our own volume knobs to fiddle with..
quality does not come from loudness, does it?
do we need somekind of standard or is it okej to have a lower sounding mix with well sculptured sounds so you can crank the volume up and still hear that smoothness? and if so, which should be the standard except that you can hear all the sounds if that is the intention?
any thoughts? |
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PsychoCinese
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
58
Posted : Nov 13, 2007 20:04
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Ho** Mother Fu** Sh**...
Congratulations for this thread!!
The artists (old ones) that i know hate 2 things:
Compressor
Limiter
In other way...
Why, include me on this, the new generation like so much of SPL?
Can we have a good Sound Pressure Level without compressor?
I belive we can, but until i do know how, i will continue with the use of compressor...
Sorry for my Brasilian english...
www.myspace.com/luunnaaproject
-> Psychedelic - Progressive <-
-> Starting my Production!! <- |
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Mike A
Subra
Started Topics :
185
Posts :
3954
Posted : Nov 14, 2007 00:07
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I think that the problem is not whether or not to compress or equalize, is how.
"compress the bass more!". like.. wtf? it's sort of like saying "write better music!". There are dozens of compressors and ways to compress. This is where the problem is. Not the actual use of the compressor, but the method in which it is used.
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Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Nov 14, 2007 00:19
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*black sheep mode - on
wtf ?!
compressors and eq's are essenial for quality production
now , dont use them wrong , is diffrent story
its all about the right settings nothing more
there is maybe less then 1% of commercial music not using compression and eq as main tool , and yes sure for vocals too! its not that the singer is not good enough at all , it just sound better slightly compressed and with some reverb and eq
some of the sounds in my tracks would cause overall volume to go down by 2-3-4 db but not after compression
BUT also lets not forget peaple at home and dj's have volume knob , and overcompressed mix is tend to be boring very fast www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
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Tomos
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
84
Posts :
981
Posted : Nov 14, 2007 01:51
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Sorry, just an aside about compressors..
Until I get some better monitors, the only thing compression has ever done for me that I can hear is stopping certain frequencies leaping out at me and jabbing at my ear drums. I only thought it gives a more smoothed out sound.
With a whole lot of experimentation, I can honestly say I've not really got much more out of compression.
What am I doing wrong? |
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Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Nov 14, 2007 02:14
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For creative compression when you want obvious pumping most compressors simply will not achieve that effect, no matter how much you tweak them.
They are usually designed to be transparent because they are commonly are used for smoothing out for example a vocalist who don't keep the same distance to the mic all the time, but without obvious artefacts.
I mostly use that kind of compression on sounds which have modulations that make it hard to control the dynamics, like filter tweaking or phasers.
Then the point then is that it should just sound a bit smoothed out.
For obvious pumping which can be nice on for example drum loops you have to use a compressor that is good at that kind of effect, like the Sonalksis TBK3 for example.
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