| Author
|
working with L2 on the master
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Mar 30, 2005 10:20
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-29 19:32, Lithium wrote:
hi brod 
i think producers should worry more about the quality of the mix than masterizing, there is a reason why mastering is done by engeneers. itīs not that simple to do a proper master. and i donīt believe we can make rules about it, some plug ins are very good and some hardware is also very good. i donīt have any hardware, but i wish i had. who wouldnīt prefer a novation k_station to a novation v_station for example? or who wouldnīt prefer to have waves max bass hardware instead of waves max bass plug in?
billy said cheap vsts, and the vsts youīve mentioned are not cheap at all, waves is expensive as uad plugs are also expensive, very good indeed but expensive, not as much as hardware but expensive...
using L2 or L3 or any other of this kind in the master channel can never be called mastering...
cheers
|
|
The bulk of the mastering "art" used to center around preparation of materials for specific mediums, the alteration of the music(compression/EQ/etc) was and is only a part of the profession. Since most software these days handles all of the formatting and subcoding (Wavelab, Nero, all of these do it fine) and since mostly the CD/mp3 format is dominant, and since mix engineers (usually YOU) are no longer limited in their mixing and re-mixing by the time contstraint of working in an expensive studio....then the role of the mastering engineer is especially diminished these days. There is no reason to automatically continue to overemphasize a role which, while formidable and important in its day, has seriously waned in value.
The value that remains of course is the ear training and second opinion of the engineer. But it's not absolutely necessary. Especially if you have a bandmate with a good ear. Don't let anyone talk you into a state of insecurity about your music, in order to extract mastering rates from you. There is only so much that can be done to a stereo master, and if the mix is disproportionate, then the engineer can't do anything to it. Especially if the engineer doesn't even work with your type of music.
As for the plugins I mentioned, yes, they are not cheap, but there are cheaper alternatives which will do almost as well. Really, a basic install of Cubase SL with NO extra plugins at all can produce PHENOMENAL results, if you know what you're doing.
BTW my main use of limiters and multiband compressors on the main channel is for what I consider "pseudomastering," for instance, if you are reference mixing (using a great "pro" track to compare your mix to, because for instance your room has modal problems) then the reference mix is going to be mastered, and in order to really compare it to your current mix, it is better to have some sort of fake master set up on the mains for approximation purposes.
|
|
|
billy ambulance
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
43
Posts :
560
Posted : Mar 30, 2005 12:28
|
a. i never recomend to a musicain to become mastering engineer and buy hardware.
L3 is a vey good mastering tool, but not the best..
b. "Br0d" - have you ever seen erez & duvdev`s studio? it packed with hardware, compressors, pre- amps, synth, effects and so on.. |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Mar 30, 2005 16:28
|
Billy,
I didn't say that people who like to use software couldn't also use hardware, I said that only elitists diss software, because software is more than ready for prime time. I myself have gone through about $150,000 worth of hardware. So what? Its relevance in music is greatly diminished in the past 5 years, and my studio now consists of 1 computer. And it's the most versatile it's ever been.
If I seem anti-hardware, it's because i am relieved to no longer be enslaved to its clumsiness. |
|
|
|
fregle
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
982
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 15:15
|
i'm gonna support br0d here cuz he's actually completely right and he's not getting much support from other people... 
what br0d means is that u don't have to think that u sound worse because u don't have this or that really expensive class-a electric-bill-destroying tube-toting drool-inducing playthingy... In fact, i dare all of u hardware droolers to actually buy an LA2A. if ur sound actually improves i'll take back my words, but it won't improve
Only if u exactly know what ur doing and ur doing it right, but u want that extra edge that a class-a circuit can give u, then u can get that expensive stuff... But the improvement it will give u will be minimal, tiny even... unnoticeable in all but the best acoustic environment with the very best monitors available... and for that improvement u will have thrown away enough money to buy a couple of cars...
ofcourse there is still a use for hardware, but i think that the home user is MUCH better off using software dynamics and mixing tools then hardware, cuz u need multiple compressors/limiters/EQ's/preamps/..., and a good hardware dynamics processor costs silly money (for a good reason, the components inside are top-notch, which is really very important in dynamics processors, cuz they define the soundquality)
i do think there is still use for hardware... i still like and use my hardware... But i use it in a very different way then in the hardware days, and i only have 1 dynamics processor left, a channel strip, to make my hardware sound perfect to record it...
also, don't diss cheap soft just because it's cheap... Most of u guys who diss cheap software have never even tried to use freeware... I get great results using only freeware, and u can too... with my next song i will try to prove that, i will only use my JUNO-60 (with a guitar fuzz pedal and the channel strip), cubase SX and fruity, the rest will be freeware (in fact, this song is almost finished, just a week or 2 to make the song structure and to do the production).
to get back on topic... only use the limiter when ur in the actual mastering fase and u want to enhance the loudness... Last part in ur mastering chain is always a limiter, but before ur at that stage i would only use limiters on a track per track basis, and only on audio that really needs it (very high peaks...) |
|
|
|
Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 15:28
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 17:19
|
I agree and disagree. I agree that high-end gear only makes sense if everything else in your production is top notch but I don't quite agree that it will only be noticable with the best monitors and the best accoustics.
My old tracks mixed on an anlogue console, although less well produced than what I make today, have a certain magic in the sound that just isn't there in the digital domain. And the high-end mastering gear does add a bit of that magical touch.
I was working with a Smart Research C2 compressor two days ago and what I notice most is that you can go further compression wise without noticing any difference in the sound. It is just that tiny little bit smoother than any of the plugins I have used (including high-end TDM/HD plugins).
Is this kind of gear worth the extra money? Only if you are at the point where you can squeeze that last 1% out of the gear and only really if you are doing this professionaly.
Unless of course you are a lotery winner. Then buy all the high-end gear you can get your hands on. 
UnderTow |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 17:24
|
Well gads, especially in trance. When was the last time someone with a buncha hardware rack units was able to select a single word out of a sample, reverse it, reverb it, flip it back, flange it, stutter it, control it with a midi gate, add a fade, and bounce it down to a replacement wav all in under 30 seconds, (incidentally, with sample accurate timing?)
Fuck hardware, honestly. I'm tired of even discussing that dusty old shit, it gives me bad flashbacks. Some hardware synths have not yet been emulated of course (Oberheim comes to mind) but once that's all done, hardware ought to be a memory to anyone but noobs looking to appear as if they have big dicks.
LOL
|
|
|
|
Lithium
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
646
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 18:53
|
hi brod
i think you canīt put things as 8 or 80, there is a mid term in everything, and again i have to say i donīt have any piece of hardware, but people with lots of hardware saying that software is not worth it is exactly the same as people with no hardware saying that hardware sucks!!!
i believe one of the main reasons why people today have lots of software and buy less and less hardware is because its very easy to have a 500 $$ software, it takes about few hours in the internet in some P2P program and itīs free while to have a 500 $$ hardware people would have to steal a shop to get it for free...
i cannot deny that software is evoluting in a very serious way, vsts are getting better and better all the time, no doubts about it, but saying this doesnīt mean "hardware sucks", or buying hardware is useless, not at all...
also i see people buying only a piece of hardware just to make a live act, cause the rest of the software they have is cracked by h20, and is already exported to .wav in the live act, so noone can tell which vst was used, or either if it was cracked or not...
cheers |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 19:01
|
Gads, quit harping on the "hardware sucks" line.
It was a joke. Of course it doesn't suck. I am that mid term. Did you see the comment above about working with $150,000 worth of hardware? I did that for 15 years. Try hauling a 60 pound sampler up 7 flights of stairs to play at a non paying gig and tell me how awesome hardware is.
A good tool is a good tool, but at this point for me to consider one with patch cables and a plug it has to be damn good. I don't even use my Virus KB anymore. Wanna buy it??
Someone donates me an Xpander and I promise to use it.
Tell you what, the thing that sucks about being all software is that people are like "oh, i want to see your studio" and they're expecting some elaborate shit, and it's nothing but a pair of nearfields, a computer like theirs, a controller, and a ratty old seat.
No blinky lights for the chix  |
|
|
|
Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 19:31
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-31 19:01, br0d wrote:
Tell you what, the thing that sucks about being all software is that people are like "oh, i want to see your studio" and they're expecting some elaborate shit, and it's nothing but a pair of nearfields, a computer like theirs, a controller, and a ratty old seat.
No blinky lights for the chix
|
|
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!
That is so damn true. Thank God I have the piano skills to compensate... nothing pulls quicker than an improvised romantic piano ballad.
Did I really just say that?
 Mastering - http://mastering.OOOD.net :: www.is.gd/mastering
OOOD 5th album 'You Think You Are' - www.is.gd/tobuyoood :: www.OOOD.net
www.facebook.com/OOOD.music :: www.soundcloud.com/oood
Contact for bookings/mastering - colin@oood.net |
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 20:06
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-31 17:24, br0d wrote:
Well gads, especially in trance. When was the last time someone with a buncha hardware rack units was able to select a single word out of a sample, reverse it, reverb it, flip it back, flange it, stutter it, control it with a midi gate, add a fade, and bounce it down to a replacement wav all in under 30 seconds, (incidentally, with sample accurate timing?)
|
|
Samplers are the worst example you can choose. I think the time for hardware samplers is gone ... but I also thought we were talking about SOUND. Especially stereo bus processing. Samplers don't qualify for that.
Quote:
|
Fuck hardware, honestly. I'm tired of even discussing that dusty old shit, it gives me bad flashbacks. Some hardware synths have not yet been emulated of course (Oberheim comes to mind) but once that's all done, hardware ought to be a memory to anyone but noobs looking to appear as if they have big dicks.
LOL
|
|
Well you will have to ask my girlfriend about that. The high-end gear I mention isn't mine. It is at the studio I work at so finance isn't an issue. It seems like you are just jaelous. ;-P
Anyway, all the blinking lights in my studio never fail to impress. That must be worth something. And as I can't do the romantic ballad on the piano thing, I'll have to trust in my blinking lights.
UnderTow |
|
|
|
EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 20:27
|
|
I don't know how u use ur software, but i use hardware to run it.
Signature |
|
|
|
fregle
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
982
Posted : Mar 31, 2005 20:40
|
|
mmmmmm blinking lights... *drool* |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Apr 1, 2005 04:25
|
|
Maybe someday we can get rid of software too, and just think music and have it become audible. |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Apr 1, 2005 04:50
|
Oh btw back on topic, as the limiters get better and better (esp L1/L2/L3) if you leave the mastering limiter strapped in, then as you go over 0db consistently and as your gain reduction exceeds 6dB, the degradation in the sound gets more and more subtle and takes longer and longer to notice. With the L3, you can get up to 20dB of GR before the thing even starts to distort, it seems to compensate by changing the EQ of the mix.
This is dangerous.
My new goal is to STOP forgetting (and getting lazy) and leaving the limiter strapped in. It should be for testing, not working IMO. It's just become too insidious to leave it on.
|
|
|
|
|
