| Author
|
working with L2 on the master
|
Surrender
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
506
Posts :
5388
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 09:59
|
so many people against and so many for it... i just thought about something tough.. if u work with a limiter and everything is always limited, isnt then ok to clip since it wont be clipped anyway no matter what? cant we in this way of work utilize all those crazy sounds that we make but cant seem to control with the clipping?
btw - im ready to receive any heat coming my way since i might be horribly wrong 
  "On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
|
|
|
Trip-
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
101
Posts :
3239
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 10:14
|
who is for it?
seriously I don't understand why is this so hard to understand that there are no shortcuts and there are no work arounds...
Crackling universes dive into their own neverending crackle...
AgalactiA |
|
|
|
WAVELOGIX
Wavelogix
Started Topics :
136
Posts :
1214
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 10:36
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-29 09:59, Surrender wrote:
so many people against and so many for it... i just thought about something tough.. if u work with a limiter and everything is always limited, isnt then ok to clip since it wont be clipped anyway no matter what? cant we in this way of work utilize all those crazy sounds that we make but cant seem to control with the clipping?
|
|
so terribly wrong bro ... only if u had known what digital audio , quantization and bit depth was all about ... u wouldnt have been taking like this ....
see , ill just explain what uve just written .....
first u put a limiter on the master fader to ensure your signal dosent clip ... [ but infact it still does , in another fashion , which ill explian shortly ] ... then u start making sounds .... tht are distorted and clipping .. but just because your master dosent clip and everything sounds " LOUD " .. u think how good it sounds .... but ifact u really got a real fucked up sound ...
now lets see with this an example ... u have a sine wave .. whose amplitude is below digital distortion .. this is means it has HEADROOM ... a very important word in digital audio ... but now since u put the L2 on the master ... u make sure ur sine wave never clips ... or otherwise it always occupise the full headroom ... but wat happens with the L2 is tht ... once the sine wave goes above the L2 threshold ... it automaticlly clips the sine wave making it a square wave .... so u see , how wrong gain control , no headroom and L2 make a simple sine wave turn into a square wave ?
imagine this happening with your enitre mix !!!
so my frnd ... dynamics is very very important and the more the dynamics u have the better sounding is your music ... try getting as close as possible to commercial production quality without any L2 / L3 on the master ..... u are only degrading your sound ...
hope i helped ... boom !
respect .. chandan !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTPJuMSwzUQ |
|
|
|
Top-down
Inactive User
Started Topics :
7
Posts :
119
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 11:45
|
|
Can't same explanation be applied on individual tracks as well ? Or in other words why use it (compressing/limiting) at all ?
|
|
|
|
billy ambulance
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
43
Posts :
560
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 12:16
|
first you make a good mix with no clipping, distorsion etc.. and than you can add limiter or compressor to get more gain and balance to the mix.
i personally dont use any of them, i compress a bit only the parts who need to be compressed and leave the mastering to the engineers...
b.t.w : mastering is better to do with hardware and not some cheap vst..
|
|
|
|
EYB
Noized
Started Topics :
111
Posts :
2849
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 12:33
|
Sometimes i use a limiter on the master while i am writing the track, coz i need to write fast to stay in the flow of the story. When i finished arranging i start to mix it, then i don't use a limiter on the master channel. But i wrote tracks that where just perfect after arranging so i didn't need to mix and i just used the version with the limiter on the master channel.
U can use one if u want to, u always can see how much is limited, so if u don't go to far it will sound good (u'll limited after mixdown anyway), this is no 'workaround' or 'shortcut', it is just another mixing-technique and if ur results sound good or even better to u then why not?
Signature |
|
|
|
Lithium
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
646
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 13:29
|
i used to have an L2 on the master them one day i tryed to take it off after the song is finnished. all the song was clippin, all of it. now imagine you work the song without the L2, and avoiding clippin and then only aply the L2 after the song is finnished and when it´s not clippin even without the L2. the results are much much better. and if only aplying L2 at the end of the mix when the song is not clippin anyway, there are much better plugs that you can use in soundforge or wavelab like ozone 3 and others that will get much better results.
if you are sending your track to be mastered the engeneer will ask you to send it without anything in the master, so just try to take L2 off in a track you´ve made with the L2 from the beggining.... |
|
|
|
UnderTow
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
1448
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 13:56
|
These days, I tend to have a limiter on the stereo bus right from the beginning of track creation. It is just more pleasant working with a "finished" sound. I set up the limiter in such a way that it only catches the largest peaks, never gets triggered by the kick/bass and never reduces more than 3dB.
The L2 and L3 do sound harsher than hardware limiters. (At least the ones I have used) and they do something strange with the stereo field (especialy L2) but used in moderation, you can get pretty nice results.
UnderTow |
|
|
|
Surrender
IsraTrance Team
Started Topics :
506
Posts :
5388
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 16:47
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-29 10:14, Trip- wrote:
who is for it?
seriously I don't understand why is this so hard to understand that there are no shortcuts and there are no work arounds...
|
|
screw u hippy! the hard way are for those who didnt find the shortcuts!
"On the other hand, you have different fingers."
http://myspace.com/gadimon |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 18:22
|
I use it for pseudomastering. But it gets me into trouble sometimes because I forget it's on, then I click into it, and it's limiting like 9db, and my levels are shot. I'm all for using limiters instead of compressors where actual *transparent* dynamic control is needed (sorry, but for transparency NO compressor can beat a limiter with read ahead optimization) but I tend to do that on the instrument channels. The L2 can get you into trouble on the mains. Now the L3, on the other hand..... jk
As for the "bit depth arguments" and such, about overages, yawn. It matters how it SOUNDS. Problem is, "L2 smash" on the mains creeps up on ya. Sounds good for a while and then BOOM, you're busy pulling down every single fader in the whole mixer. :-/ |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 18:28
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-29 12:16, billy ambulance wrote:
b.t.w : mastering is better to do with hardware and not some cheap vst..
|
|
Why? Because it makes unemployed mastering engineers feel special? Have you even heard the L3? Or Lin MB? Or UAD-1 Pultec? Or Fairchild? Hardware sucks. Waste of money, and source of elitism for old, bitter lovers of the Beach Boys. Nothing personal but I really hate luddite comments like this one. It's misinformation, plain and simple. |
|
|
|
Lithium
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
646
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 19:32
|
hi brod
i think producers should worry more about the quality of the mix than masterizing, there is a reason why mastering is done by engeneers. it´s not that simple to do a proper master. and i don´t believe we can make rules about it, some plug ins are very good and some hardware is also very good. i don´t have any hardware, but i wish i had. who wouldn´t prefer a novation k_station to a novation v_station for example? or who wouldn´t prefer to have waves max bass hardware instead of waves max bass plug in?
billy said cheap vsts, and the vsts you´ve mentioned are not cheap at all, waves is expensive as uad plugs are also expensive, very good indeed but expensive, not as much as hardware but expensive...
using L2 or L3 or any other of this kind in the master channel can never be called mastering...
cheers
|
|
|
|
mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Mar 29, 2005 20:44
|
When I started writing music, I used the l2 on my master all the time. I did like the results, but I didn't really understand what it was doing. I recently went back to a couple of tracks that I had used the L2 on and bypassed it just to see what was happening... Wow, I really had no clue about setting my levels..
Now, I will keep the l3 bypassed and do all the mixing for the track first, and then as a final step before rendering the version that I will play in DJ sets I unbypass it just to find out how it will sound.
And yes, by just using the l2 or l3 isn't really called mastering, but if your mix is good, all you really need to do is put your limiter on there and you should be set. It's always been my goal to give mastering engineers very little to do to actually master one of my songs.
An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
|
|
|
DJ Buju
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
70
Posts :
1334
Posted : Mar 30, 2005 01:32
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-29 18:28, br0d wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-29 12:16, billy ambulance wrote:
b.t.w : mastering is better to do with hardware and not some cheap vst..
|
|
Why? Because it makes unemployed mastering engineers feel special? Have you even heard the L3? Or Lin MB? Or UAD-1 Pultec? Or Fairchild? Hardware sucks. Waste of money, and source of elitism for old, bitter lovers of the Beach Boys. Nothing personal but I really hate luddite comments like this one. It's misinformation, plain and simple.
|
|
You're the one who's misinformed my friend.
I work @ one of the top 3 studios in the Uk and we have lots of old vintage gear and also the top of the range digital plug ins.
I must admit most of the time i end up using the plug ins like the L3 or UAD stuff rather then the fairchiled 670 that sits next to me and gets dusted but to say hardware sucks is wrong.
beside what an old school mastering engineers like Katz or ludwig will do , guys like you can only wet there pants of thinking of doing... no offence amigo but all these plugins you talk about came from these guys ideas and every single plugin is trying to imitate the old hardware.
But nothing can sound the same... FACT!
Back to the subject, I think using an L2 or L3 on your master fader is a great idea if you know what youre doing.
can't go wrong with making things sound louder and tighter.
Bom BOm
BUju
www.domorecords.com
www.myspace.com/domorec
www.myspace.com/tupanrecords |
|
|
|
br0d
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
355
Posted : Mar 30, 2005 09:52
|
Quote:
|
On 2005-03-30 01:32, DJ Buju wrote:
You're the one who's misinformed my friend.
I work @ one of the top 3 studios in the Uk and we have lots of old vintage gear and also the top of the range digital plug ins.
I must admit most of the time i end up using the plug ins like the L3 or UAD stuff rather then the fairchiled 670 that sits next to me and gets dusted but to say hardware sucks is wrong.
beside what an old school mastering engineers like Katz or ludwig will do , guys like you can only wet there pants of thinking of doing... no offence amigo but all these plugins you talk about came from these guys ideas and every single plugin is trying to imitate the old hardware.
But nothing can sound the same... FACT!
Back to the subject, I think using an L2 or L3 on your master fader is a great idea if you know what youre doing.
can't go wrong with making things sound louder and tighter.
Bom BOm
BUju
|
|
I'm really not impressed by where you work, nor am I impressed by the names you drop, I'm sorry that you have assumed that I must automatically revere that sort of tired industry infrastructure.
Of course I do have some respect for top pop engineers like Ludwig and Massenburg, but it is due to the talent they exhibit and the talent I have witnessed, not the high dollar equipment they use or how big their mixing console is.
The main point I want you to realize, is that high end hardware's cost/benefit ratio is extremely poor for the home user. The cost exceeds the point of diminishing returns for the vast majority of the population, therefore it is pretty useless to them and to dance music forum discussions, therefore one might even say it sucks, even if it technically "works better."  At best it's irrelevant to Joe User's budget, at worst, noobs are being encouraged to save up their hard earned money for audio status trophies, intead of spending money on cheaper utilities which are 95% as effective. And most of the time they are receiving this bad advice so that some sophomore producer and/or hardware bigot can feel like a "pro" by throwing out the "advice."
Too many people bring pro hardware up in discussions where the overwhelming majority of the participants are obviously low end DAW people, and these misled people neither have the money nor "professional interest" to invest in snobby audiophile gear. Plugins, in contrast, are typically far cheaper, and if not, they can often be obtained at student discounts, or for some people, via five finger discount (I am not advocating it.)
Really, I've seen this elitism problem on the net since Usenet started. Noone ever got a bozo button for it, and you won't either. Nothing personal against you, but you're choosing to jump into a very common role/archetype among net musicians, and it's one I disagree with, so I'm telling you about it.
See, the thing I believe a lot of people fail to realize, is that a preference for hardware is not some trump card that makes one the smartest guy in a discussion. The smartest guy is the one who is the most efficient and utilitarian with respect to his budget and his needs. High end hardware is for really only people who have record label budgets, or generally budgets coming from sources other than their paycheck. This is not the audience on most forums, this one included.
Golden eared engineers would do roughly the same good job on a $50 limiter. The relevance of the "pro" studio has generally been replaced by the home project studio, especially where subgenres and specialties like dance music are concerned.
And please save yourself the trouble of comparing me and my pants to your "classic" audio heros, I didn't ask for the comparison, it's ad hominem noise, and irrelevant to the discussion.
The genre this board is dedicated to is really just a form of accessible electronic folk music, featuring low barriers to entry, and high amounts of local participation, and fast rates of innovation and change. It is not part of the exclusive pop juggernaut your "top studios" and their pristine hardware create. It doesn't WANT to be.
Personally, I respect visionaries like Erez and Duvdev, whose careers consist of the art of low-tech innovation, rather than ivory towered, boring, anal pursuits like "pro mastering;" these are people who incidentally listed "all available plugins" as one of their main ingredients in the music they were producing YEARS AGO, even before VST/DX plugins were even especially good.
So, no, I'm not especially misinformed.
|
|
|
|
|
