wirakocha
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 28, 2014 02:00:39
Hi I was Working hard in this Kick Bass combo
I made the kick with BazzISM2 +EQ
Bassline Operator Saw+Fabfilter Saturn+WavesL3+EQ+two utilities in group one in mono 0db another one in stereo 175% + 10 db+Side chain Compresor
combo put in group add filter and the glue compressor.
here is the example without mastering
if you use another technique for wide stereo bassline,let me know,advices are apreciate.
elastic_plastic
Re-Boot
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Posted : Feb 28, 2014 12:54
can you help me to understand how you maintain equal balance between both the speakers while processing stereo bass?
frisbeehead
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Posted : Feb 28, 2014 19:14
with a stereo output, a mono channel is just that: comes with equal power from both channels, left and right.
by making it wider you're just raising the level coming out of both speakers, if you're starting with a perfect centred source that is.
I just don't see the benefit of doing this. think it's better to keep things centred on the very low end, and absolutely no problem widening up the sound and making use of real stereo/sides (differences in stereo) on the top layers. usually does the trick for genres like drum n' bass where the bass sound can be something like the combination of three sounds layered together.
Why not keep it simple down there, then engage the saturation + stereo on another layer and build from there? Thing is, I don't see the benefit of placing Saturn on the entire patch for a number of reasons. To put it simple: you're using saturation that effectively reduces the dynamics to some extent - depends on the settings; then you're placing a multi-band limiter on tops. I'd be surprised if there's any dynamics left on that sound, and chances are you're getting different levels of saturation as some notes make both saturation and limiting work harder then others, and in most cases with such a chain, that means a form of distortion not very different from digital clipping, 'cause limiting squares off the wave, makes it sound more hollow, like a square...
What I think that makes you think there's a benefit introducing Saturn there is to make it more steady and the extra harmonics make the sound more present and warm. And L3 would act like some form of broad band EQ, allowing you to adjust the relative volume of bands afterwards, thus producing a more controlled sound with presence where you want it to be.
My take on this is: it's better to have a simple signal, wave shape down there, as speakers have less trouble translating that, generating a regular (as in geometric) wave shape rather then a more busy or odd shaped one. This means less clarity and that the bass presence will be less steady actually, more fuzzy - that's why there's the fuzz effect, right? A sawtooth is like a combination of sine waves, right? so I like to keep the fundamental tone and to about 100Hz (a bit more then that usually) simple. I can compress there if I want the presence more steady. Yeah, compress, rather then limiting. Because: compressor allows a portion of volume to go over the threshold, while a limiter does not. It's normal to want less dynamics in the very lows, that's what rock solid bass usually means to most people. But bare in mind that having even volume on all notes on a certain frequency range is one thing, having different volumes hitting hard against a limiter with different thresholds for each band - specially when you can have very dynamic phrases changing the notes a lot - means you're getting different levels of harmonic distortion per note + per band.
Why not just make sure your patch sounds good to begin with. Then either use some simple compressor on tops, can be enough, or multi-band if you wish to change the relative volume of bands in the spectrum. Provided you don't fuck up the envelopes and you set the thresholds to tame down like -3dBFS (gain reduction) per band, when you raise the note like an octave, you could be getting something like -6dBFS, that would still mean, depending on ratios, some volume change, but it would be minimal, plus it would sound more natural and with less artifacts.
hope it makes some sense. cheers
Upavas
Upavas
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Posted : Mar 1, 2014 10:17
Also note that the frequency where you differentiate from mono to stereo will experience a dip... AFAIAC keep K and B centre, and play with your stereo field for everything else...
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com http://upavas.com http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/
UnderTow
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Posted : Mar 1, 2014 19:31
Quote:
On 2014-02-28 19:14, frisbeehead wrote:
with a stereo output, a mono channel is just that: comes with equal power from both channels, left and right.
by making it wider you're just raising the level coming out of both speakers, if you're starting with a perfect centred source that is.
I just don't see the benefit of doing this. think it's better to keep things centred on the very low end, and absolutely no problem widening up the sound and making use of real stereo/sides (differences in stereo) on the top layers. usually does the trick for genres like drum n' bass where the bass sound can be something like the combination of three sounds layered together.
Why not keep it simple down there, then engage the saturation + stereo on another layer and build from there? Thing is, I don't see the benefit of placing Saturn on the entire patch for a number of reasons. To put it simple: you're using saturation that effectively reduces the dynamics to some extent - depends on the settings; then you're placing a multi-band limiter on tops. I'd be surprised if there's any dynamics left on that sound, and chances are you're getting different levels of saturation as some notes make both saturation and limiting work harder then others, and in most cases with such a chain, that means a form of distortion not very different from digital clipping, 'cause limiting squares off the wave, makes it sound more hollow, like a square...
What I think that makes you think there's a benefit introducing Saturn there is to make it more steady and the extra harmonics make the sound more present and warm. And L3 would act like some form of broad band EQ, allowing you to adjust the relative volume of bands afterwards, thus producing a more controlled sound with presence where you want it to be.
My take on this is: it's better to have a simple signal, wave shape down there, as speakers have less trouble translating that, generating a regular (as in geometric) wave shape rather then a more busy or odd shaped one. This means less clarity and that the bass presence will be less steady actually, more fuzzy - that's why there's the fuzz effect, right? A sawtooth is like a combination of sine waves, right? so I like to keep the fundamental tone and to about 100Hz (a bit more then that usually) simple. I can compress there if I want the presence more steady. Yeah, compress, rather then limiting. Because: compressor allows a portion of volume to go over the threshold, while a limiter does not. It's normal to want less dynamics in the very lows, that's what rock solid bass usually means to most people. But bare in mind that having even volume on all notes on a certain frequency range is one thing, having different volumes hitting hard against a limiter with different thresholds for each band - specially when you can have very dynamic phrases changing the notes a lot - means you're getting different levels of harmonic distortion per note + per band.
Why not just make sure your patch sounds good to begin with. Then either use some simple compressor on tops, can be enough, or multi-band if you wish to change the relative volume of bands in the spectrum. Provided you don't fuck up the envelopes and you set the thresholds to tame down like -3dBFS (gain reduction) per band, when you raise the note like an octave, you could be getting something like -6dBFS, that would still mean, depending on ratios, some volume change, but it would be minimal, plus it would sound more natural and with less artifacts.
hope it makes some sense. cheers
I doubt Satin is used to control dynamics. It adds harmonics which changes the sound. It makes it fuller and warmer. (Depending on settings of course). I am not sure how Satin is implemented but it is possible it doesn't even affect the dynamics at all. (I would have to test it to be sure).
Also, what makes you think different notes will cause more or less harmonics? They will obviously be in a different place frequency wise as they are related to the frequency of the input signal but different notes are not necessarily louder or softer. Also, even if there are different levels of harmonic distortion based on notes or velocity, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can accentuate different notes more or less but if you work through such a chain you adjust things like velocity of notes anyway. (At least, if you are listening properly ).
Having different levels of harmonics based on level is how things behave in the real world.
UnderTow
frisbeehead
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Posted : Mar 1, 2014 22:01
I was actually talking about Fabfilter's Saturn, not U-he's Satin.
But even with Satin, which is like a tape saturation work horse, tape saturation does have an impact on the transients to, besides the obvious coloration and added warmth (harmonics and all of that).
The harder you drive it, the more harmonic distortion and less dynamics you get, the threshold for this is much bigger then with digital, and some mixes were driven real hard when recording them to tape in the 90's and so. So yeah, you can compare two waveforms with some tape saturation and full dry and see that some peaks actually get attenuaded, it kind of glues everything together along with a very warm kind of distortion.
What I meant was not that different notes will cause more or less harmonics. It's different. With a multi-band limiter, with a different threshold set for each band, considering that you're not always playing the same note, different notes with different frequency content will probably trigger the limiters differently. Limiting being the hardest form of dynamic control, this can and probably will become apparent and noticeable. it's normal that a louder note makes the limiter work harder, but what if some note makes the middle band work harder, and the first one less so, and then it changes? you'll get different levels of limiting across the bands in a non musical way.
Then, even if you're using velocity to volume modulation for creating some dynamics, you're probably going to notice it, because the loudest hits the limiter harder, depending on settings, it can be all you're getting, a more distorted signal that's smashed against the ceilling... So I think that precisely when you're using this kind of modulation, it's best to preserve some of those dynamics from the patch and writting, and a compressor seems (and sounds) more natural to this, reacting to differences in dynamics is what it's made for, right?
So you get these differences in volume only by preserving some of this differences. You control the dynamics, this usually means reducing it, bringing those loudest notes - could be something like a note going up an octave - closer to the volume of the others.
Think about it like this: a limiter can be transparent, yes, when it's not causing much gain reduction, if it is, then you get a squashed sound with a lot of digital distortion with no dynamics at all. The difference between transparent opperation and just blatant shaving of the peaks, squashing the signal, this threshold, isn't much at all. I'm saying that a signal that's a little limited and one that's a bit more, can sound drasticly different. Now picture that happening with splitted bands across the spectrum on a dynamic sound with notes jumping up and down.
If you compare that to the sound of a mix being compressed soft or hard, the difference in settings has to be much more dramatic to be as noticeable.
Upavas
Upavas
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Posted : Mar 1, 2014 23:34
I don't know about a limiter being transparent, all I know is whatever causes the limiter to kick in gets cut off, end of story.
As to my previous post, I would like to add that by widening the bass and kick and making it stereo you take a lot of space away, space in your mix that can be used to insert fx, leads drums without overlapping and drowning out bass and kick...
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Posted : Mar 2, 2014 00:36
Quote:
On 2014-03-01 22:01, frisbeehead wrote:
I was actually talking about Fabfilter's Saturn, not U-he's Satin.
I was actually also talking about Saturn, not Satin. I have no idea why I wrote that. I haven't even tried Satin. Duh!
Quote:
What I meant was not that different notes will cause more or less harmonics. It's different. With a multi-band limiter, with a different threshold set for each band, considering that you're not always playing the same note, different notes with different frequency content will probably trigger the limiters differently. Limiting being the hardest form of dynamic control, this can and probably will become apparent and noticeable. it's normal that a louder note makes the limiter work harder, but what if some note makes the middle band work harder, and the first one less so, and then it changes? you'll get different levels of limiting across the bands in a non musical way.
I see what you mean. With multi-band processing in mind your comment makes sense.
UnderTow
UnderTow
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Posted : Mar 2, 2014 00:37
Quote:
On 2014-03-01 23:34, Upavas wrote:
I don't know about a limiter being transparent, all I know is whatever causes the limiter to kick in gets cut off, end of story.
Please don't tell anyone I have 16 limiters in various places in the project I am working on at the moment.
UnderTow
Upavas
Upavas
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Posted : Mar 2, 2014 00:43
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Posted : Mar 2, 2014 00:57
Quote:
On 2014-03-02 00:43, Upavas wrote:
Yeah, I like to use them too, my last project had 14 limiters... Lol
UnderTow
frisbeehead
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Posted : Mar 2, 2014 22:27
Quote:
On 2014-03-01 23:34, Upavas wrote:
I don't know about a limiter being transparent, all I know is whatever causes the limiter to kick in gets cut off, end of story.
As to my previous post, I would like to add that by widening the bass and kick and making it stereo you take a lot of space away, space in your mix that can be used to insert fx, leads drums without overlapping and drowning out bass and kick...
).
