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Why Tune Percussion?
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bodfum
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
10
Posted : Apr 16, 2013 12:58:17
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Hi guys, new here so go easy on me. A little about myself. Learnt classical piano and drums as a kid. Have played drums in blues and rock bands, and after a broken wrist meant giving up the kit I played bass, acoustic guitar and cajon in an acoustic duo.
To my question. I've recently started on this electronic music journey, not sure what I'm going to write yet, having too much fun learning and tweaking at the moment. I've read through this forum twice (joys of being a night security guard, hours to spend on th net), and I keep reading the advice to tune the kick to the fundamental, or the hats, or whatever percs you are using. Why? In all my years of playing in bands never once have I tuned a bongo, or bass drum to the bass guitar. I play cajon, which isn't even tunable, and that fits in any key. Cymbals can't be tuned either. Am I missing something?
  “Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”
Frank Zappa |
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Soma_Happiens
Started Topics :
9
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120
Posted : Apr 16, 2013 13:36
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hey, my five cents
tuning kick with bass in trance is necessary to get the rolling feel of low end, no such thing in rock music an stuff.
tuning percussion is not about them fitting a key, it is more about making them fit the whole spectrum of the track and sound coherent in a mix.
off course you are right about cymbals being not tunable, but on the other hand different cymbals have different sound, produce different fundamental, so tuning percussion in your daw is more like choosing the cymbal that fits your needs and the sound you are going for in a band.
In A Society That Has Abolished All Adventure The Only Adventure That Remains Is To Abolish Society
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bodfum
Started Topics :
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10
Posted : Apr 16, 2013 13:52
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Hey Soma, thanks for the reply.
Can't you get that rolling effect with the bass playing with the kick? that's how I've always done it playing live. Just listen to some blues, you can quite clearly, hear kick and bass at the same time but they're not tuned to each other.
I grew up listening to metal bands, in my teens I was going to acid raves (the original illegal ones in the late 80's early 90's). My 2 favourite bands are The Prodigy and Pink Floyd. None of my heros ever tuned kicks or percs so why do we have to now? Are you telling me they've got it wrong?
I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to understand why 35 years of music is suddenly being turned on its head!!!
“Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”
Frank Zappa |
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Soma_Happiens
Started Topics :
9
Posts :
120
Posted : Apr 16, 2013 14:10
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idk mate  they definitely got it right - their own way - what is more right than that? 
i'm not an expert of trance so i should leave this for others, but imho its more of a formula to easily achieve KB combo as it is heard in most of trance these days.
blues and other genres don't try to emulate that sound so they dont need it
on the other hand they also did tune their drumsets, just as you did (i hope) while playing in the band, to achieve needed character of a drumset, they just did it for the whole bunch of songs not for every song individually
tranzers might view it differently, but for me, tuning the percs is just about getting them sound right and like they should (from creative perspective) in a mix. It is not necessary to tune them the same as the fundamental is, they might form some kind of harmonic relationship with the fundamental, etc - i see it as a creative tool more than a rule
In A Society That Has Abolished All Adventure The Only Adventure That Remains Is To Abolish Society
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http://www.facebook.com/SomaHappiens |
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bodfum
Started Topics :
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Posted : Apr 16, 2013 14:23
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My kit was always tuned to a degree but only with itself. Tighten the kick till you got it sounding nice, and there was always a sweet spot, then by ear the snare would be an octave higher than the bass and the toms so they "sounded good". Again, always a sweet spot where you got that nice resonance thing going on. None of this was done with a tuner, so there was no way I was in tune with the rest of the band, but it made no difference. Live or recorded in the studio it sounded good and tight.
You talk about character of the kit. Each band has it's own drum sound, different kits, skins, cymbal sets etc. Why in trance must it all be the same? Not just trance, but this seems to be a trend with a lot of genres, and to me they all start sounding pretty much alike (maybe that's just my age and I'm starting to sound like my dad!!).
“Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”
Frank Zappa |
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Requisite
Started Topics :
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4
Posted : Apr 16, 2013 15:08
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Ill start off by saying what Soma said was in essence absolutely right. Especially on the front of percussion, simply tuning it to make it 'fit' in the mix. If you listen to alot of amateur productions etc it will soon become apparent when no thought of sample choice of transposition of samples has been made as the track just isnt coherent and doesnt flow like those who have an ear and get the percussion complimenting the track beautifully. Its not a necessity and sometimes some percussion and samples will fit straight away its more a case of what works rather than tuning for the sake of tuning. With the kick its exactly the same, some people swear by tuning the kick to the key of the track while others never do it. I do both in all honesty and sometimes a track works best with a tuned kick drum and it just sits well with the bass while other times a fat kick just does its job regardless of key. Use your ears is the better advice that can be given, if it sounds good then it is good. If it feels awkward then try using a tuned kick drum (best off making them yourself for full control with either Bazzism or EKS Pro by Synapse, Ive got both and there both awesome). |
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Fakso
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
179
Posted : Apr 16, 2013 15:30
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Depends on what you want in the end
for that modern (psy) progressive sound it's e.g necesseray to tune the kick to the bass I'd say, as this really makes a lot to the rolling feel, the key frequencies of both sounds alternate in a nice rythm and complement each other perfectly thus a nice rolling, I was never able to achieve this feel until I did the tuning
I also was told that some time ago that acoustic instruments have specific overtones in relation to their key frequency that really let you distinguish what instrument it is whereas an electronically synthesized bass e.g does not have such sort of overtones and the key frequency is more important
For percussions it also depends, I just mess around with transpose option until it sounds right, the more percussion you have it maybe clever to spread them across the frequency range in order to get a wider range of sonic possibilities thus more variety (thats really it for me, sonic variety by tuning)
https://soundcloud.com/noordzee-laborant |
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Geom3
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
479
Posted : Apr 16, 2013 15:41
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why tune anything...u may kno that
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
93
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2822
Posted : Apr 16, 2013 18:33
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it's been pretty much gone over in this thread but I'll reiterate some points.
One of the things that makes it easy to dance to/trance to psytrance beats is the kick and the bass are tuned to each other so that they interact with and play with each other, and if this tuning is done in a clever way your mind starts to bleed the two together and they become one massive rolling sound
If this key interaction between arguably your most important elements is not spot on, this illusion/interaction starts to change. sometimes this is good, sometimes it isn't.
The only way you're going to know is to tune them and see if it makes a difference vs not tuning them and go from there. For my time tuning the kick drum makes a difference, tuning the hats/cymbals etc doesn't.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
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Upavas
Upavas
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150
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3315
Posted : Apr 17, 2013 01:14
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bodfum
Started Topics :
4
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10
Posted : Apr 17, 2013 01:23
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Thanks for the replies guys, it seems I have a lot to learn.
“Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”
Frank Zappa |
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supergroover
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
39
Posts :
1505
Posted : Apr 17, 2013 10:23
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It just sounds better 
soundcloud.com/supergroover |
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Geom3
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
479
Posted : Apr 17, 2013 16:23
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ultimately i would say its up to u... coz no doubt u could tune percusion and it may sound like shite than it would if u didnt..depends how it sounds i guess...
http://soniccharge.com/microtonic - fantastic and easy for tuning home made percussion's to your leads basses n kicks fx etc etc
samples...either works or it doesnt..
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knocz
Moderator
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
1151
Posted : Apr 17, 2013 18:58
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In a band situation it's simply not that easy to tune the drums on stage.. Even playing tracks with different guitar tunnings usually requires a separate guitar already tunes and a roadie in the back tuning.. For the drums, this would require a separate drum kit. So, bands make due with what they have, and they have always done this, and we're used to it -> it's what sounds good in those genres.
However in electronic music it's quite possible to change the tunning, and you can do more! Multiple kick sounds throughout a tune, insane layering and post production effects, automations, etc. The goal is to get creative, and try to do something new..
Ok in trance you've got the KbbbKbbb and there's not much of running from that, but in he break sections you are allowed to do pretty much anything you'll like. And playing with all these setting can achieve greater results!
A drummer has a high hat and that's his high hat do play wit; an electronic drummer can have as many high hats as possible and so much more (like playing with intervals like Upavas said->great tip!). This reminds me of the drum kit in fantomas: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fantomas+drum+kit
That guy can play chromatic scales with his kit!
Super Banana Sauce http://www.soundcloud.com/knocz |
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bodfum
Started Topics :
4
Posts :
10
Posted : Apr 18, 2013 14:47
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Hey knocz, great vids. Oh to have a play on that kit, I think I'd get lost!
So basically what you're saying is to use the percussive elements of a tune as part of the melody. So I've got to stop thinking along the lines of just purely rhythmical impact but to think of the percussion as another tuned instrument as well.
Again, thanks for the replies all.
“Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.”
Frank Zappa |
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