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why is low bpm better than high bpm?
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mk47
Inactive User
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 20:52
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Quote:
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On 2010-11-23 20:49, willsanquil wrote:
eh?
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^ nevermind , monologue .. reference from another thread etc , not relevant to this thread .. forget :)
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daark
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 21:00
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omg!!! leave that genres and stuff to the side ....
i just can't believe in those statements that says that lower bpm has more deepness and space ...heart rate connection?
what the hell
do you think that pad can't fit the same in 70 bpm or in 180 bpms? than you are way wrong. or anything else .
160 can easy contain low bassnotes as proven zillion of times by many artists atmopads and anything that a 120 track can hold.
those elements could fit anywhere.
all those posts are ignorrant .
if you can dance 180 at dnb why you can't at trance 151 ?
all those people would probably dance to astrix's 150 anytime or whatever you idolize as "true" music.
i was generaly talking about technical things
all elements can fit at any bpm anytime and it doesn't even matter what is your pose..fuck i can dance too 8000 bpm if im tripping
what were you saying your brain is too slow for fast beats?cmon...what is it has to do with what i asked.
anyone has some sceintific facts ?
or is it all came to imho that proves that low bpm is not better in anyway than high bpm it is just a subjective as colors or whatever
 http://soundcloud.com/magimix-1/chilling-forest-whispers
Wierd shit happens :) |
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mk47
Inactive User
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 21:06
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brain got more time to process , at least for the bass , as tsabeat said earlier , try it yourself , slower = deeper and better bass & most apparent with k bbb style bassline , short notes get played longer.. i think
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 21:16
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I do not have the facts on hand right now, but I've seen it stated before on isra the technical 'scientific' reason why you can do lower bass with lower BPM. I belive Maine Coon posted it at some point on Isra, maybe he would be so kind as to re-iterate it.
Now, how MUCH lower? Not sure. Not sure if that even makes a difference to the discussion.
Not sure why you even care so much  You like what you like, you have your own taste...why does it need to be validated by other people agreeing with you?
For the record, I can't dance 180 at DNB...but that has less to do with the tempo and more to do with DNB...ain't my thang 
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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A.Rosengren
Solid Snake
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 21:24
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daark, a lot of the dnb in this range of 160~~ is percieved as a "double time" which "means" 80bpm. Not to mention the kick drum is not the most "prized" item of a dnb track, it's far more common to be the snare drum.
And no offence mate but you have a picture of goa gil and Albert Hoffman as your avatar, I think we all know where you stand and by judging of this topics arguments, subjectiveness seems to be of essence.
And sorry again but I have to disagree with you once again, an example: add a conga or any type of drum (more than 1-2 hits) with a kick and a bass to a track, swing quantize it (bass&percussion) on let's say around 35-40% and try this pattern on both 150bpm and 128bpm.
Which one of these do you think would have more space for the groove to make it self properly introduced?
Thirdly, most of the music (yes feel free to bash me in flames and shitstorms) above even the 140 mark is to me completly lacking of "breathingspace" and/or groove in regarding everything from bass to percussions (do not try and convince me suomi music is 'groovy', it is complete rubbish, yes feel free to flame me once again)
IMHO I find music around 128bpm or even lower to be a lot more fluent and rich in depth than most of the music even around 135. One of the main reasons for this is the so called "plastic sense" most of modern psy-trance and it's relatives are trying to achieve by squashing the frequencies towards oblivion. Not to mention people still use the vb-1 and think that vanguard has the "richest most psy-trance friendly" sound. (not to mention the praising of Zebra2 (which imo sucks, that's right, sucks) )
And at least a fraction of this so called plastic feel and lack of depth is somewhat related to as mentioned before shorter wave lengths (caused by faster bpm) and probably because of the relationship between a shorter "clicky" kick drum in reference to a "longer" kick drum with higher release.
Note that I am in no way claiming to be a superior producer or anything like that and by me mentioning that I realize my post is far from "politically correct" regarding of where we are and what this forum holds for type of participants.
I just found it ironic that someone claiming being able to dance to 8000bpm and who's name is daark is discussing low bpm towards high.
Thank you and good night!
A
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mk47
Inactive User
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 21:25
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sure , more low got nothing to do with a track .. across genres , as far as making it better etc , but its still cool to feel a bass go fatter as you turn it down from 150 >138 , fuck technical , got ears and a loop ready ?
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TimeTraveller
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 21:45
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I see it same as Solid Snake has written about the tempo and the groove ,solid low end,more depth space and time.
But when on acid - which does not happen to often here - I find it hard or difficult to fall into trance&dance when the tempo is in the 120-135 bpm range although the music might sound mighty.It should be in the 140's BPM range for me to make a good 'compromise'.
..later when in deep good trance I can fly and enjoy the sound quality on lower tempos,but the start should be faster.
Sometimes I enjoy even way faster music of course.But this video above from Goa Gill is absolutely not my cup of tea.Fucking breaks each three seconds..wtf why to stop each second the flight direction the journey,this is not psytrance to me,something about a rough happy hardcore maybe.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 22:16
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Thank you Solid Snake, for being a bigger fast-trance Nazi then I will ever be You make me seem moderate in comparison!
Oh and really? Don't like Zebra2? That's interesting, I've only ever heard really positive reviews about it. In fact pretty much everything from U-He I love.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 22:36
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The thing about bass is a scientific fact. The rest, I think, is just subjective opinion (including the bit about heart rate, afaik).
The bass turning into a rumble at high BPMs actually has more to do with math than with our brain or your synth’s circuitry (although those things matter too). The shorter a note gets the more “fuzzy” its pitch becomes. At some point a note will sound like a click with no discernable pitch. It’s the same as Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, except applied to sounds instead of elementary particles. Just like with Heisenberg’s there is a trade-off in how precisely you can measure a particle’s location vs its momentum, with notes there is a precision trade-off between notes’ timing and their pitch.
The extreme examples would be a constant infinitely long note (you know the pitch exactly and know nothing about when it starts or ends) or a sharp very fast click (you know precisely when it happened but you cannot tell the pitch at all). Anyway, in most cases we’re not aware of this trade-off: notes are long enough for us to figure out their pitch and their attack is sharp enough for us to determine their timing. The uncertainty is still there in theory – we just don’t hear it. It’s when we go down in pitch and go up in tempo that this wishy-washiness becomes noticeable.
To continue the analogy with Heisenberg, timing of a note is like a particle’s location and the pitch is like a particle’s momentum. If you tell me that you’re driving your 2-ton truck at 70 mph and you’re 30 miles North of Boston, a smart-ass geek can turn around and say that your speed is actually 70+/-0.00001 mph and you are actually 30+/-0.001 miles from Boston and you cannot be more precise than that. Who cares! But in the world of ridiculously small and super-light particles those tiny errors suddenly seem huge. The same way, an uncertainty of +/- 2 Hz in pitch is not noticeable if you play a 1 kHz note but it will become a big deal at 50 Hz. Or an uncertainty of 50 ms in timing is not a big deal at 40 BPM but it becomes a big deal at 180 BPM. And you cannot cure both problems – the more you fix one side the uglier the other becomes. So, in the extreme you may end up with a recognizable pitch but your notes are fused into continuous rumble (like in a lot of psycore) or you may end up with well-defined notes that sound more like drums than bass (like in a lot of fast tech trance).
That’s all just a mathematical inevitability. But on top of that, there is inertia in your synth’s circuitry and in your speakers’ movement and in your brain’s processing – which make this problem only worse.
But Daark is right: your atmospheric pads will not suffer. Neither will your percussion loops. It’s only very low and very fast bass that’s in trouble here.
That’s science. The bit about heart rate may have something to do with science but I could not find anything on the subject that comes out of a trusted source. By that I mean peer-reviewed biomedical research publications, as opposed to blogs of “New Age Intellectual Elite”.
Everything else in this thread is pure opinion (including my “highly explained bullshit” ramblings, of course). So the only certainty that comes out of this topic is the uncertainty principle. 
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The Andychrist
The Andychrist
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 22:39
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 22:42
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 22:46
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Quote:
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On 2010-11-23 21:24, A.Rosengren wrote:
(do not try and convince me suomi music is 'groovy', it is complete rubbish, yes feel free to flame me once again)
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Grrrrr!... 
Would gladly echo everything else.
On the second thought...Grrrr!...
Funny thread indeed.
P.S. I apologize for the novel above. It's often easier to re-write stuff than to find it in search. |
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Kryten
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 22:46
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I totally agree on the Snake's Post!(except fot the thing about Zebra2..im still happy I bought it...but meh..personal taste I guess)
I have my troubles with faster bpm's too.
Fullmoon-Festival was also mentioned here. Well, I was on quite some of them ..before they had a "dark" Stage and after.
I also tried to enter that stage...on different "mindstates" from sober to completely fucked up 
I just cant do it. And I dont like it there because of the atmosphere....
call me a filthy hippie, but I love that feeling when everyone is smiling and dancing together on a sunday morning...all the "survivors" who are then in a deep trance state(at least I am when I am there for hours). I never ever saw anything close to that on a dark stage or anywhere else where faster darker stuff was playing...there it seems everyone is on its own...shaking a bit and beeing lost.
Thats not the feeling because of which I love those festivals...and the music. I cant dance to it...not even short and I dont feel connected(dance wise) to most of the people I meet there.
But again(seems one has to mention it here in every post): Thats just my view...ofc everyone has different likes and stuff and if the faster stuff would be crap in general then there wouldnt be this discussion or anyone dancing to it
My first track:
http://soundcloud.com/kryten/ |
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willsanquil
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 22:54
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I'm really close to just putting in a huge disclaimer in my signature so that I don't feel the need to constantly re-assert that yes, these are just my subjective opinions and not indisputable fact.
+1 Kryten, agree'd - I am there at parties for the joy and the community and the mind expansion, all 3 of which I rarely find in the speedcore darkness.
If you want to make an apple pie from scratch...you must first invent the universe
www.soundcloud.com/tasp
www.soundcloud.com/kinematic-records |
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aciduss
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Nov 23, 2010 22:55
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Quote:
| i just can't believe in those statements that says that lower bpm has more deepness and space ...heart rate connection?
what the hell
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Hehe... what the hell?
Were it is just about TIME = SPACE
128bpm = .468 ms per quarter = .117 ms per step
145bpm = .413 ms per quarter = .103 ms per step
160bpm = .375 ms per quarter = .093 ms per step
180bpm = .333 ms per quarter = .083 ms per step
Want more science than numbers?
The beat is basically a pulse, like heartbeat. Most forms of vibration have an effect on the human being, psychologically, physically or emotionally. So don't find it strange to link BPM with heartbeat, im guessing the bpm measure came first for heart rate than for music itself.
And good luck trying to fit a deep and spaced kick'n'bass in a .333 quarter measure.
Viva Goa Gil...
lulz |
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