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why goa gil ?
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
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1931
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 16:46
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next please--->
 )))
and please dont forget to mention some more tausand times how we destroyed the indian culture by making it clear to the western world that there are holy people smoking holy chillums in the mountains out there which is a fact that hardly anyone knew in the west before goa gil appeared:). we have destroyed the whole thing by making people have respect towards india:)))))
so ashame of that, excuse my irony but sometimes it is better just to smile if you dont have to say anything good any more:) we are the bad ones:)))))
om namah kali durgaia ( how nice that i dont have to pronunce it loud, cause i could obviously never pronounce it right, as our indian bortheres and sisters assure us.... my non india tongue is not made for such spiritual practises)
p.s. i wanna have the same experience with for instance the south american culture, or the japanese ot whatever. maybe anyone has the next big thing as a worldbridger between the cultures??? would be great. too much goa gil topics here and all full of people who know everything soooooo well:)))))))))
next please ---->
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
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368
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 17:02
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It probably would have been better for the western world not to know about the chillum smoking baba's...Due to this widespread information the police are now cracking down on every bloody trance party in India...because of all the rampant drug usage and influx of foreigners into India who abuse rathe than use responsibly, consuming drugs and flipping out, India had to make Charas illegal, which is a shame considering it is such a huge part of the Indian culture. Wonder why so many foreign DJS lately getting busted in India (cause we had to make these substances illegal because of pressure from foreign governments) You seem to have missed a very big part of what I've been saying...it's not that foreigners can't become Sadhus...anyone can...but what i've been saying is GIL IS NOT A SADHU. His lifestyle is in direct conflict with the path a sadhu is meant to lead. If you don't understand this lets leave it at that. If your friends are laughing, it shows how little you guys actually are.
And with regard to the divine dozen. I have never supported it. I do not support something that induces competition. It makes the ones who don't make it on the DIVINE DOZEN feel very small. I don't need it, I never watch it, I've asked all our artists that the tracks I release, I prefer not to have them on such charts. Our artists support us first and foremost. It's a free world, free speech is appreciated. I speak for myself, and my label. I speak for Tantrumm Records. It's Kal Yug Now because any TOM DICK AND HARRY can become a Sadhu..that's why it's Kal Yuga...the purity of such practices is lost.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 17:20
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 17:52
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"It probably would have been better for the western world not to know about the chillum smoking baba's."
Well, this is a totally different approach in this discussion which i would consider to think about. But Fria, all the Indian Naga Babas that i met on the Kumbha Mela told me that they would be happy if their stories are being spread into the west. There was not even one who said that this knowledge should stay forever esoteric. They wanted themselves that we write stories in newspapers and magazines about the whole thing. And this were not just any saddhus but the naga babas. I know that you would again say how little i know about your own culture, but i just think that you are not so aware of the fact how many saddhus are there in India who are self announces, they have no official lineage, they are just asketes, but with no lineage, they dont belong to a lineage. And it is really rare to have the lineage of a naga baba so i really consider this type of saddhus for something very special and rare. And nor everyone can be that, not at all! Dont know why are you so sure that anyone can be that? Have you ever been among them????:)
And believe me I would never publish stories about Kumbha Mela if they had not told me that they want me to do it. So they obviously saw a reason why the western world should see the importance of treating the marihuana as a sacred thing and not just smoke it as an act of cunsuming, like ppl consume everything in the west, no matter what it is.
And besides, most of the people in the west would not even have one percent of the respect that they have towards India, if they didnt know about the saddhus. But Ok, it is your right to think like that and i respect that. Only, i think even the police can make a difference if the smoking is made for ritual purposes or not. Or are they also prohibiting it to the saddhus themselves??????????????
And yes, it is very pity what happens with the foreign Djs arrested in India. But as i am reading this thread about the necessity of being an Indian in order to practise this rituals ( and "no foreigner can be a saddhu" and so on) i a kind of realize some more things about the reasons why this all happened. And i get more confessed that everyone should just concentrate on his own culture and ancestors.....
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phiber_optixz
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
162
Posts :
2072
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 18:17
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LOL!! Nice thread... hehe  I shouldn't have posted a link to Tina's documentary here..
http://forum.isratrance.com/what-do-our-folks-think-about-the-psychedelic-counter-culture/
Someone put it on this thread.... n here we go... 6 pages and counting!! 
Yes, Goa Gil is a DJ... but he knows much more about spirituality and Indian culture as well as beliefs... a whole lot more than todays killarghhhhh DJ's...!!! 
Just the charming smile of his face makes wonders on dance floors... what if he doesn't beat-mix well??
He deserves to stay in 5 star hotels... he has the right to charge more than any other DJ. He knows his thing better than any other DJ in this scene...
Over n Out!
PLUR.
P.S.: @Tina: Sorry for posting the video on this forum.
Om Trayambakam Yajaamahe
Sugandhim Pushti - vardhanam|
Urva - rukamiva Bandhanan
Mrytor - muksheeya ma - amritaat|| |
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Colin OOOD
OOOD/Voice of Cod
Started Topics :
95
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5380
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 18:57
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
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368
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 18:58
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So I guess we should thank you for the commercialization of what should be held sacred. You've been to a Kumbh and interviewed a couple of Sadhu baba's who are media hungry rather than quiet and contemplative...and VOILA, you know more it seems. I've spent the past 6 years studying Indian religion and practices and it's history so kindly do not lecture me on your brief and imprecise knowledge. You misinterpret the point. Do not take offense and read incorrectly into what I say. I said anyone can be a Sadhu, but it's an extremely difficult path and not something one can take lightly. It means continuous devotion to denying materiality, ego, and the SELF. The Sadhus you met and spoke to are not the real and rare ones. The real ones you have not had the pleasure of meeting as they shy away from the public eye and try to keep to themselves. They would never agree to an interview.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
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1931
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 19:38
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Where do you know which saddhus did i meet?? )))you are talking all the time with such a crazy conviction, as if the most important thing you want to say all the time is that it is not me, the foreigner , who should have been to kumbha mela. is this the problem, you just have a problem with that? or you have a problem with me talking about a culture which you are sure to know better than anyone else, better than goa gil, better than all the naga babas?
I havent even posted the videos from kumbha mela nowhere till now. I had a project that i wanted to do about it, but then i left it because i just dont feel ok about it, i guess, i just dont want to read posts like yours telling me what i have commercialiazed. Although as i said, i have heard from the naga babas themselves that i should do this, and they are the very same naga babas who are striking the cameras of reuters and whatever, and shouting at them.
btw how can i commercialize sth for which i have never even took a cent? as you see it is all free that i have posted:). or you mean i have commercialized the idea? i think you are some 40 years late to blame sister.
but ok, let it be, i am the one who commercialized it:). seems ridiculous to me, but okey. let be your word.
and yes, i must confess that with this discussion i lost a great amount of respect towards tantrumm , but anyway it is just the way it is. i just dont see the point why you have to blame me for writing about my experience, but dont worry i am not going to india again and no i dont want to get initiated and not interested in that at all any more. and now tell me some more 1000 times that i am guilty for writing about it or doing the video. nor sure if i will read it though
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
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368
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 20:02
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I have a problem with misrepresentation of religion and spirituality. I have a problem with religion being used like some sort of fashion trend. Yes I take it personally. If you lost respect for Tantrumm that's too bad for you, cause my faith, and respect and belief in good music are untarnished by such petty issues. I wasn't blaming you, I was merely pointing out your faulty notions about what a SADHU is. You continuously refuted this argument on the basis of conversations you had with some Baba's, and I am trying to tell you that this is usually the problem, alot of such Baba's are not real. It's great you had a Kumbh experience, don't know why you think that pisses me off. In fact I'm real happy for you. No one said you were guilty of making a video, just pointing out that a Sadhu is not something to take so lightly.
I like your video, I saw the whole thing. Even though I don;t agree with what you say, it's nice you have a passion and work towards it. So while your respect for me might have dimished, mine for you is unmoved. We don't have to agree, I enjoy healthy arguments, and i respect the fact that you take the time to make such movies....I guess we are just different people.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
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1931
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 20:51
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you know what, i know that you are right about the saddhus being full askets fully renunciating the world. and let me tell you something very honestly, because i feel the honesty in your posts too, and this is probably not the best place to write this, but i guess i am too direct for this society, for any society ( and thats why i try to avoid society actually). so what i want to confess to you is that i even left our project psy film com because i felt that it was starting to commercialize the whole thing too much at the parties. i dont enjoy people who want to be the fashionable saddhus at parties, looking like that, smoking like that, but in all other aspects having nothing to do with that. i just said enough, without me in the future, i will start a new project which is honest. cause none if us is a saddhu or sattvi, even if we have read about it tons of literature or heard the oral traditions in India. but you know, i just cant stand anymore people from the west who behave like babas, and saddhus, and othing to do with the whole thing. so i didnt even appear to our last party which was dedicated to that, cause i feel not okey with that. so i guess i have exactly the same approach about it like you do, may be from another perspective but it is the same thing. i dont enjoy the saddhu fashion either.
but waht you refuse to see is that there are much much more fake sadhus ot there in this world than goa gil. he is at least doing the right thing in the west, and all those people that i mean, they are just a lie. you know. there are so many of them in the west and not only in the west but everywhere on the globe where they have gone. i cant look at that any more. they pretend to be something that they are not. putting some dreadlocks on the hairs does not make you a shiva follower and smoking a chillum either. and still, i think that goa gil did many good things about this thing, he keeps it always pure while he is doing the parties, keeps them sacred, always in a sacred geomtetry, always blessed with ganga waters, always a very pure and special thing or at least believe me for us people in europe it looks incredibly sacred and pure compared to anything else!!! we dont have so many things like that here....and this is what most of you refuse to see. the real fahionable thing does not really come from him but from many many other wanna be saddhus out there. i know he is not a real asket, i guess, he knows it himself but he simply has this kind of double personality....i will not repeat what i have already said before.
i just dont think that he is the problem, he is on the contrary one of the very very few westerners who keeps it relatively pure and is very respectful towards the indian culture...
but i dont know what to say anymore. i just see those contradictions every minute of my life, we are all so contradictory......
and anaway, sure i have not stopped to love tantrumm records, i think it is a great label, and i just think that this is one more example of how people can get separated on the interent more than it is needed.
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
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368
Posted : Nov 13, 2008 21:06
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I understand what you mean... I know there are alot of fakes and this has made me very anxious about the whole situation. I think Gil is a lovely person, and I never meant any disrespect towards him. I guess we just got carried away with our own convictions. I know he does more good than most others and I never said otherwise. I have not spent alot of time with the man so I don't know him very well, but he's been positive when I have met him. I'll try to be less critical about such things. I apologize for being aggressive if I was. I've just been feeling very strongly about the deterioration of such practices and thus have started to have a more puritan attitude about it. Nice to make your aquaintance over here Keep the videos going because it gives something to people and it's lovely to create something for humanity. Let's not separate, we belong to the same movement
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Nov 14, 2008 16:47
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we are not separated sister, we just had a kind of a constructive discussion and i guess both if us can learn something from the other one at the end:).
thank you for encouriging the videos, i appreciate this very much. and i apologise if by writing or doing the video i have violated or abused in any way your own culture which i am sure you know much better than i do:).
i just also take these goa gil discussion very seriously and deeply, not because i know him personally that well, but just because i want to keep pure what he does. and believe me most people that chritisise him everywhere, they just dont have a clue what he is doing, they dont chritisise him because they know what a real saddhu ist but mostly because they dont wanna have anything to do with spirituality anyway. you cannot imagine how poluted the scene in europe can be, how many much bigger egos there are and how many people commercialize the thing. actually for me even to put an indian symbol on a cover and then sell the release with a sanskrit name, is also violating the culture and commercializing it. and this is what most ppl do. that is why i cant hear this goa gil discussion any more. not only the hundreds people who speak about something that they never seen and just heard the gossips from others, but especially all the rest of the people who commercialize the thing themselves , this is what i cant stand anymore. and i know a lot of them, talking so much about their fX spirituality and doing nothing spiritual at all. i am sorry if i was agressive in protecting what he does. i just wanted to tell you that neither of us here has ever been a saddhu with a lineage, which means initiated by other saddhus, so who are we to judge? whatever he does, he is among the naga babas at least part time, and we are not, we just judge from the perspective of worldly people.
so i just let his saddhu thing be, although i know that he is not an asket and a traditional indian saddhu is an asket. but may be the traditions have changed according to kali yuga and now there are a kind of different messangers and channels of cosmic spirits...you know this very famous book of yogananda, the autobiography of an yogi? i find it interesting that one of the gurus which is described there, not only was siddhi, i .e. strong magical and spiritual powers, but also had to be a worldly man working for a big indian company and the meaning of all this was that he had to show the people that yoga can be also practised without full renounciation of the world. this is a connection that i see to the goa gil thing. he has a slightly different mission from the traditional saddhus but still he makes a great thing for us, the materially oriented people of the west. in a time of full commerce, ego games, fame power wars and anything else, he is just like a light bringer. and believe me i dont think that it is good to critisise what he does in public, because it only makes it worse. i just let his saddhu thing be. and as i said, he in comparison to me and you and whoever here, is at least a part of an official saddhu lineage in india, so i guess he has to know more about that than we do.
and once more sorry if i have violated your own culture, i hope we dont get separated by that, and i will be happy to stay in contact with you. i wish you great luck with your project too. it is just as simple as that : after i have been to kumbha mela and spoke to the naga babas there ( i did not really had much contact with goa gil himself there and actually i dont even know if he likes the idea of this video at all or feels the necessity to separate the saddhu thing from the dj thing stronger as he told me once). but after i have been there and wrote the stories for our small underground circle of freaks and not to make it famous and commercial, i then realized that i have seen something on this ritual that even many people from india have not. and i strongly believe that some of the naga babas that were having strong magical powers there, were not fake at all. not at all. they could hack the natural lows of nature and this does mean something. so i believe them if they say that some of the lineages nowadays have to be taken by foreigners because of some reason. they know what they do. this is what i believe, and excuse me for the impertinence to talk about a culture that is nor mine, really, i just seek for the truth....and i would go to any culture and try to see rituals like that and collect the peaces of the puzzle.
i send you best greaatings and hope that we stay in contact:).
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Squee.Isme
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
23
Posts :
252
Posted : Nov 15, 2008 05:01
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wow, that was intense... a couple days goes by and this thread turns into an online class on sadhu-ism...
what i am gonna say will not help anything and has been said in one way or another over and over on this isratrance network.
negativity spawns negativity, and it is obvious that the ratio of negativity to positivity on isratrance has been unbalanced for a long time. it is rare that i will read a thread that doesn't start getting nasty and personal. i don't know if it is just here or in the world in general that people have forgotten what good heated discussion is all about. there are 6 billion people on this earth, and we have the balls to get angry at people for not sharing our opinions? give me a break... each and every one of us in this world has a different way of seeing things and that is the very thing that makes us and this world so amazing.
let us remember to respect each other and each others opinions, because they belong to us and they don't deserve hostility. the greatest thing people can do with their opinions is discuss them, disagree OR agree, talk more, be open and learn from anothers view of the world.
monki.... i know that you and fria are starting to talk nice, but try and remember that people have opinions and rarely can a person speak for a group or speak for the many. the fact is, fria owns tantrumm records, and it is her name on isratrance. does this mean that everything she says is a direct reflection on the MISSION STATEMENT of tantrumm records? no, girl, fria is just speaking her mind, as fria, and as a beautiful indian woman who knows a thing or two about her own culture. the thought that the opinion of a person would taint your opinion of the music that comes from the label is at the very CRUX of the issue for me... this whole spirituality in music issue.
what this really reminds me of is something i know so well already. spirituality is personal. though millions of people may practice the same religion or theism, each and every person has a different view of what life is, and what their spirituality is. the trance scene has been coined a 'spiritual' scene for a long time, due to its roots in india and the nature of the music/psyche relationship. what is sad though, is that now it is just like america, where there is no seperation of church and state, and the government rules from behind an open bible.
this is music, people, this is not religion. who the fuck cares if some guy who made YOU have a spiritual experience is a saddhu? ya, its peoples nature to idolize the musicians and artists that they love, but give me a break. i don't give a kitty poop if gil is a mormon or a cannibal, i don't go to hear him so that i can get a sermon, i go to hear him because i like the party and the music that he plays. when we start applying all this extra garbage into our music, all that happens is we stop focussing on the music and we start bitching about plane flights and if this person was wearing this or that and whether or not some guy preys every day... its all just fluff, its all bullshit.
are you spiritual? good for you, so am i. is your spirit the same as mine, in many ways yes, but in the way we perceive our spirituality it is so different.
why can't we all just get on a freekin dancefloor and smile and dance our ballz/titties off and have our personal spiritual experience? why do we all add more and more fluff to what is so simply wonderful already. music is spirit enough, and the most amazing thing about the trance is that it lets you go on your own trip, to your own place, with your own deities and icons.
why can't we stop coupling religion with everything? religion and food, religion and government, religion and television, religion and music, religion and GOOOOOOD....
your religion bugs the fuck out of me and mine bugs the fuck out of you, your religion is the same as mine and mine is the same as yours, we each just have a different filter through which to view the world. STOP THINKING THAT YOUR FILTER IS THE ONLY ONE.
squee |
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Nov 15, 2008 11:14
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Quote:
this is music, people, this is not religion. who the fuck cares if some guy who made YOU have a spiritual experience is a saddhu? ya, its peoples nature to idolize the musicians and artists that they love,
Quote End
i do care. because in every discussion there are facts and opinions, and those are two totally different things. you can say whatever opinion you want but the objective facts can not vary that much. and i wanted to talk about facts all the time here, which obviously did not really happen till now. i wanted to hear any given proof from any indian holy scripture where it is written that a foreigner cannot be a saddhu and i did not get one. i asked many times where does this information come from ( that everyone can be a naga baba and is is so easy to be that) and noone gave any facts besides some indian fellows posting here something like " let me know tha facts better than you do cause you were not born here". and last i wanted to know who has seen the kumbha mela experience himself and noone came and said wait a minute, yeh i did, and i know this from there, i dont just judge like that.
so at the end of the day, too many opinions without facts behind them maybe very useful for forums like this one ( that is why i hardly read a topic here), but they are not useful in a serious discussion. i already posted what i saw here: http://www.psy-film.com/spirit/kumbh/nectar_of_immortality.htm and i dont even see one person here who says , yes but this is not right because this and that.
and yes people can get very personal especially if they read that they have commercialised a culture which is a hard stone.
and yes, i know many people like you that
go to a goa gil experience because you like the music, this is perfectly okey, noone wants you to be religious , even goa gil tells you in the interview that he does not wanna have a bunch of disciples and does not see himself as a guru anyway. but to deny his background, this is what i find disrespectful.
and yes i did not know in the beginning who is writing here, because it was written on behalf a project that includes many people that i know, some of them even personally, so that is why i askes who stands behind the project name. it is as simple as that. i did not know fria before this discussion. may be it is normal for you on isratrance to write on behalf of a label, i am not an often attendee of this forum, so i did not know who i am talking with.
i dont know how many of you will say once more that i dont want to hear opiions of others. opinions are one thing and facts are a totally different thing.
and i really wanted to hear facts, especially if someone says that he know a culture better than others because if his background, then it is supposed that he has also the facs for what he says : for example , here in bhagavat gita or whatever at page this and this, it is written that you have to have the indian blood to be among the saddhus, or whatever other thing. and let hold to the facts in any discussion. because yes it is a hard stone to say you foreigners have commercialised everything and making fun of india. for me it is not okey. and i just wanted to hear why should we make fun of india?
and if we do , then i would like to hear the reasons why. i am not interested in the discussion itself where i am gonna hear 100 of things that i have heard many times before even by friends, it is nothing new somehow. religion and trance and pro and contra. it is your thing and i normally dont even partake in those discussions. but yes i am interested to hear facts.
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moki
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
1931
Posted : Nov 15, 2008 12:53
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p.s. ....and in order to make it clear for all of you who just do not stop repeating all the same thing : no i am not saying that a trance experience MUST BE spiritual and neither do i say that no other Dj can offer such a channeling experience as a worldbridger between the cosmic spirits and the world of man . i am just interested to show that a trance experience CAN be religious, can be very deep and mind altering, because of its concept, and i never said that Goa Gil is the only one who does something like that, but regarding the indian culture i do think he is. so i give tribute to that.
and even the disrespectful posts did not satisfy my need to know what is wrong with that. my message is just, be respectful towards what he does and towards his background. of course you can go on forever with all the same stories, i am the last to stop you. i prefer to stay away from all those meaningless parties all over rather than try to change all those people around.
btw i was really surprised that you are still discussing this video, it has been quite a long time now. so let me put it like that, this was a prject of one or two years ago, this year i concentrated on totally different culture, the tibetan one, and we concentrated on a trance dance experience dedicated to the tibetan book of dead ,which is imo also just the same example that a party can be much more than it is for most isratrancers i guess. next year it will be again other culture, and the year after that again another. so i just try to give tribute to any given culture and i dont see whats so wrong with that. i have never even come to someone and said hey, what the fX you are doing , you must be spiritual my friend. BE WHATEVER YOU WANT and DO WHATEVER YOU WANT!!!! i just give a tribute to the fact that yes for some of us the trance culture is sacred, and you can find it everywhere on the globe.  i dont believe that only the indian connection is sacred, i even have more interest in the south american right now than in the indian, because of all these things that happen regarding goa gil and people cutting his cables and equipment there, and all other sick things with friends who got arrested. so at the end of the day, i leave you discuss further the meaning of trance and the holy scriptures that most ppl here have never read. wish you joy while discussing;)
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