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Why don't I use a limiter?
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golem
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 9, 2012 02:15:53
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Can you suggest me that in what kind of situations I would need a limiter when doing full-on psy. I really haven't (yet) found any use for it except for master channel (maximising volumes).
Although I do use compressor almost on all sounds. I tried to use it on bassline but I didn't (yet) find it helping in any way.
I just hear some people using limiters in almost every channel, some people (Broken Toy) like having many limiters in a row in bassline, etc..
Aah sorry almost forgot, I did use it for a particular kick because I wanted it louder (but it also got rid of some nature of the kick).
OK yeah I found another application,with snare or kick rolls you might need one.
 
http://www.soundcloud.com/dreaml4nd
http://www.mixcloud.com/aegonox-peter-pan |
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 9, 2012 03:04
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it s mostly about trying to get the overall mix sounding better if it help i think.
sometimes it can make some sounds better too, bring out detail, more in your face, more in control... but i think the aim is more about helping the mix to sound good and loud or on some special mixing technics ( like useing a slower attack and squasing the sound with a compressor on something like a snare and limiting a little the transient peak, stuff like this..)
as long as you stay with less than 0.5/1 db it s quite transparent , over than 1db to me it s heavy limiting, it can sound good or bad depend the effect wanted , but yeah it become a effect that change the sound
for me the use of limiter can be there to mimic what hapen in some analog hardware..it limit the sound naturally ,tame the peaks.. it can help to get a mix with more separation ,i dunno how to explain it, but taming the peaks can make a sound just sound right in the mix too..if i want to mimic this with plug i will try a limiter to tame peaks or a good saturator or both , or combo of compresion limiting and a saturator , but limiting always lightly.
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Cardinals Cartel
Black Machine
Started Topics :
191
Posts :
3097
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 03:14
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Limiter its just a limiter not more , This is not a big story And/So if you should need/Use it in every
channel So you a very bad producer , Why you should do that ? , Thats all about doing things right .
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On 2012-02-09 02:15:53, golem wrote:
I do use compressor almost on all sounds .
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I use compressor on 95% of my sounds , Compressor can be (Kind of) 'Limiter' But the limiter cant be compressor .
Compressor With an right work (Right eq , Right channel vol And the compressor himself) DO the work for sure .
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On 2012-02-09 02:15:53, golem wrote:
Need a limiter when doing full-on psy .
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And when you doing dark ?
Try not using limiter at all (Sure not on master) , You know this is all start from the first sound , This is all start from the begin - RIGHT WORK ! .
Keep your Master 00:00 , Take your Sound card vol max up , Gain the sounds max down And bring them comp' & effects .
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PoM
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Feb 9, 2012 03:53
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think about your mix will end loud...for me it s better tame peaks by small pleasing touch (love my culture vulture ) or at least transparent ones here and there ,than cliping and limiting the shit out of it in the end.
with this philosophy you start to think at what tame peaks ,make stuff sounding better in the mix at same time and get you more loudness potential , it s win win.. but it s just my view, might be wrong, might be right.. and there is many things in the equation ,some mix get really loud and are almoste not prcoessed with dynamic tools at mixing stage, it s a lot about the balance , the sounds used..the thing is to not get a overprocessed sound, it become usless and sound like crap |
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jsrobinson
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
29
Posts :
85
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 06:29
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My impression of a limiter is just to control peaks for unpredictable, evolving, or random sounds.
Seems like overprocessing to use one to push volume or to use it on a completely static sound. |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 08:06
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avoid using compressors... at all!
let your music breath, use a compressor when a compressor is needed (leveling volume fluctuations, pump sounds like vocals and drums and maybe in some leads or bass sidechain)
compressors are not magic tools of quality audio they are tools for specific jobs.
dynamics are useful when squashing them its not good for your music.
limiter are fixed level compressors good for taming peaking sounds and mastering audio.
http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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☼ DigiTrip ☼
Started Topics :
4
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26
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 09:46
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and everyone forgot that... the consumer doesn't hear the difference at all 
orange: if it sounds good or not, the main factor for compression is TECHNIQUE and not that "squishing dynamics is a no go". Properly used compressor spreads life and movement in every track, you can bump up transients, cut a lot of mud from kicks and basses, fatten the kick tail and much much more - "what you want to achieve", and "knowledge about properly doing it" are two most and equaly important things in using a comp. Even -4dB of gain reduction can get your lead sitting better in the mix 
Peace! |
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orgytime
IsraTrance Full Member
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120
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Posted : Feb 9, 2012 10:24
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@DigiTrip +1
i also see it like that, compressors really can make your track more enjoyable... and consumers are used to this sound. after eq its the most important tool for me.
@topic
what does a limiter do? it reduces volume, if a sound reaches the threshold, right? thats what i do with compressors too... so why would i need a limiter? i only use it for mastering to make sure nothing peaks.
cheers
www.soundcloud.com/orgytime |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
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3918
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 11:07
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Quote:
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On 2012-02-09 09:46, ☼ DigiTrip ☼ wrote:
and everyone forgot that... the consumer doesn't hear the difference at all
orange: if it sounds good or not, the main factor for compression is TECHNIQUE and not that "squishing dynamics is a no go". Properly used compressor spreads life and movement in every track, you can bump up transients, cut a lot of mud from kicks and basses, fatten the kick tail and much much more - "what you want to achieve", and "knowledge about properly doing it" are two most and equaly important things in using a comp. Even -4dB of gain reduction can get your lead sitting better in the mix
Peace!
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most of the things you say are done with good use of envelopes and eq.
the compressed sound on most of todays productions is to achieve higher levels of volume and sound pressure.. thus resulting in a overcompressed sound with no life and lots of db.
and as i already said using a compressor when needed is good but using a compressor everywhere is plain useless and ignorant.
leveling a lead with a compressor is normal but using compressors on a kick sample that has a constant volume is useless since you can achieve the proper sound out of it just by using the envelope and and eq.
i can understand using compression on a buss that has your kick and bass to "glue" them together.
i can understand using a compressor on real drums to give it a more constant volume and enhance transients and volume.
but on an electronic music scenario with sounds being volume stable and constant its just a gimmick and not an actual enhancement.
http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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☼ DigiTrip ☼
Started Topics :
4
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26
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 11:54
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On 2012-02-09 11:07, orange wrote:
most of the things you say are done with good use of envelopes and eq.
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not every synth has sample accurate envelopes, not every synth has a diversion of attack shapes, etc. etc.
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the compressed sound on most of todays productions is to achieve higher levels of volume and sound pressure.. thus resulting in a overcompressed sound with no life and lots of db.
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ive heard lots of great mixes destroyed in the mastering process ;P and thats what youre talkin about.
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leveling a lead with a compressor is normal but using compressors on a kick sample that has a constant volume is useless since you can achieve the proper sound out of it just by using the envelope and and eq.
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nope. you forgot that compression with fast attack distorts very low frequencies like <50Hz. And this is whats makes that friggin BOOM! in an 808 kick ;>
- EQ'ed frequencies tend to shift in phase
+ as far as i know, a common digital compressor does'nt do this
+ once more: it depends of how good or bad envelopes are implemented in the synth. Dont get me wrong - every software dev make's it in different ways. This is even more appliccable to hardware synths, where everything depends on physical quality of the components. Know any minimoogs sounding perfectly the same?
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i can understand using compression on a buss that has your kick and bass to "glue" them together.
i can understand using a compressor on real drums to give it a more constant volume and enhance transients and volume.
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programmed envelope in synth is STATIC (if we talk about standard per sound programming). Once you program an AMP envelope it behave always 100%, over and over, according to your instructions. Compression is dynamic in time and its higly dependent on attack/release settings and the signal itself - the more its going on in the signal, the more compressor reacts. (you could say you can do that in synth - ok. is there any sense in wasting lots of processing power and doing it a lot longer than putting a comp?)
And for the drums - this is a perfect example where DRUMS get life and thump because of compression. Now ask yourself - how would you achieve this sound in a different way?
and on the side of "comp on every sound" - it's faster, you can sculpt your enevelope and get that character of fat transient, fat bottom, or every other addon implemented in compressor + a diversity of compressors, and after that, their unique characters. Get a clean 808 sample, get it through an SSL comp and any other. Pretty tough to get the same sound, huh? 
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but on an electronic music scenario with sounds being volume stable and constant its just a gimmick and not an actual enhancement.
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and thats the point? you know why analogue synths sound better to our ears than digital? because there is lots of micromovement in sound, even on a single saw wave!
Nature sounds arent static, our inner body sounds arent static, our ears dont react static and so for - our ears like when the sound have this natural micromovement on this subtle level.
compare a digital perfect saw wave, playing it static, and an 100% analogue saw also played static.
if you concentrate on these two sounds you'll see how the analogue wave moves - it has its own flow, there is lots of very slow pulsation, diffused saw peaks, saturated lows and lots more.
Digital saw wave is simple and sterile - not pleasant.
Analogue saw has tons of non-linearities as in time/dynamics/tone - and that whats pleasant.
Getting back to the compression - the procesess that most producers are after is this movement/in the face sound/sound dynamic in time, which our ears simply interpret as NATURAL. (and im not talking about eric prydz pumping :0 )
Once more: Static is awful, Movement is natural.
could you imagine driving a car 70km/h, non stop for 10 minutes, without acceleration/decceleraion? i dont think so
do we like repetitive, static patterns in music? HELL NO!
the same goes for signal dynamics
PEACE! |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 13:01
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ok i like that you agree by disagreeing with me..
first of all most if not all of the time after processing the synth patch you than export/bounce it and this result with a sound that is always the same. so you add a compressor if needs leveling if some volume fluctuations occur.
eq phase shifting isnt applicable to every eq out there linear phase eq's dont dont introduce phase issues.
and yes envelopes differ from implementation to implementation... but when talking in the kick/bass domain if the envelope isnt fast enough you export the loop and work in a sampler with a more tight envelope and also cos its easier to select the more punchy sample out of a looped bassline to keep consistency.
the 808 example isnt really valid since you can process an 808 or any other kick with many different ways than compression.
about analogs.
ok if you keep things in real time than yes compression could help shorting out many volume variables.
but who does it nowadays?
when you are done you record the thing and be done with it.
the rest about the difference between analog and digital is off topic.
the way everybody works depends on many things.. but reality is that especially in electronic music compression in badly overused.
i like my music to have dynamics.. i like headroom and musicality and not constant and unrelenting decibels of squashed sound.
i dont say i dont follow the same trend.. i do but that doesnt mean i like it.
its wrong and not many things in music can be wrong.. but this is.
all in all everybody can work as he likes.
i prefer not to use compressors or limiters if not really needed. http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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Nectarios
Martian Arts
Started Topics :
187
Posts :
5292
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 13:17
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Compressors have parameters, they don't just squash the life out of sounds and mixes.
Compressors can be transparent...compression can be gentle and it can be hard. It is an invaluable tool for me, from the help it provides with mixing, down to the transient sculpting, sound shaping I get from compressors that are part of my sound design.
Peace out.
http://soundcloud.com/martianarts |
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the five assed monkey
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
22
Posts :
145
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 13:23
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Its very simple. the limiter is the brick wall for peaks that the compressor sometimes don't catch.
if u have a signal with lots of peaks put a limiter after the compressor. what u say about snares and kicks is right its work good on them. but remember u can loose dynamics on sounds and that's no good in most cases. |
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orange
Fat Data
Started Topics :
154
Posts :
3918
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 13:33
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On 2012-02-09 13:17, disco hooligans wrote:
Compressors have parameters, they don't just squash the life out of sounds and mixes.
Compressors can be transparent...compression can be gentle and it can be hard. It is an invaluable tool for me, from the help it provides with mixing, down to the transient sculpting, sound shaping I get from compressors that are part of my sound design.
Peace out.
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yes i agree on that.. its very good when used properly and not as a magic tool of sonic supremacy.
ive seen producers load 350 compressors just cos they think it will make they production better.
compression is tricky and can be equally good as it can be bad.
its better to avoid it if dont know how it works.
http://www.landmark-recordings.com/
http://soundcloud.com/kymamusic |
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Suloo
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
87
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2822
Posted : Feb 9, 2012 14:11
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On 2012-02-09 02:15:53, golem wrote:
Can you suggest me that in what kind of situations I would need a limiter when doing full-on psy. I really haven't (yet) found any use for it except for master channel (maximising volumes).
Although I do use compressor almost on all sounds. I tried to use it on bassline but I didn't (yet) find it helping in any way.
I just hear some people using limiters in almost every channel, some people (Broken Toy) like having many limiters in a row in bassline, etc..
Aah sorry almost forgot, I did use it for a particular kick because I wanted it louder (but it also got rid of some nature of the kick).
OK yeah I found another application,with snare or kick rolls you might need one.
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problem solved and everything clear?
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