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Why do you like (or dislike) fast (160bpm+) "nuerotrance"
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FattyAcid
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 12, 2009 21:09
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lizzard, I DEFINATELY love your track selection....to me, the sounds you play are the standard for "good" neurotrance....but I am on the same wavelength as dragon...
I understand the idea of " the quickening", but enjoy my ungraspably complex sounds at a graspable tempo
Much love, certainly no disrespect to any artist, Gil certainly isnt the only purveyor, just the obvious choice when discussing the style
  Wake walking through your sleep dream
Esoteric Generation (Arkansas)/Beatnik Production(AR)/ Three Way Mirrors (West Coast) |
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FaceHead
FaceHead
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Posted : Jan 12, 2009 21:55
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i wanna say bravo lizzard.
ok check it. I make music that is between 100-196 so far is my highest. I have a 191bpm track that is way easier to swallow than some 140 bpm ones. Look at yourselves. you are destroying your own ability to enjoy any moment that is currently happening to you by going into them with predetermined attitudes. you know before you think it sucks that its gonna suck becasue you said i think alll of that music sucks and its trying to murder me based off of a handful or even a single experience. yes lizzard is right there is a speed threshold to dance you follow the kick drum till you can and then cut your time in half so you are slowly and calmly enjoying music at high speeds....white noise is absolute chaos yet it gets to a point where it is so chaotic that it is calm any of you who have ever had a severe psychedelic experience can relate im sure to that. But you cant get to that point if you cant break through that wall of chaos that is trying to scare you away. Point is yes there is some hail satan childish nonsense out there but that does not mean fast music or neuro is anything more that what you are perceiving it as at the moment.. in the same set ive had people come up to me and say dudee killlarrrghh keep darkness alive or whatever then ive had people come up and say that was beautiful. so perhaps having opinions of whether or not to automatically like or dislike anything that your mechanical brain organizes into categories in endless file cabinets of likes and dislikes so you can predict whether or not you want to make your life more efficient by never doing anyhting that you think you may not like with an open mind and essentially open eyes. ok so sort that mess out if youd like. to answer the original question. i like some of it but will never determine that based off of its speed, label, artwork, intensity, etc.
There are artists on all sides that are pushing a less than psychedelic adgenda its up to us to pick and choose artists NOT styles to support. Its also up to us on the contrary to stop supporting artists leeching off of the scene.
I saw gil inside in new york and i was almost offended by it...then fast forward a year later had a very important life changing experience in the oregon outdoors. my point is that if i wouldnt have made myself present for that awakening by going to see an artist play who offended me the first time then i wouldnt have had it and would be a much different person.... other than that for you people to be placing gil as the figure head for that kinda music youve chosen to not like is not really fair he is a person separate and different he is not dark glitchy whatever trance. just some guy.
ditch your predetemined instincts to control you reality by not letting anything thing in you havent scientifically decided was the best plausible option for you. yes acceptance isnt just for druggies anymore its for everyone. The only way to peace is through your acceptance of any circumstance if you are able to accept that then no situation even ones your brain frowns upon will be without benefit.
To predetermine things is to keep your advancment in a feedback loop.
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kahn
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 12, 2009 22:50
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I mostly agree with the original point. But I admit I am a music snob to the music I like personally.
For me it's not always the speed that interrupts the flow, but the long, repetitive, hardly changing beats with only small bits of melody here and there (if any at all). I need some chord progression, and some "flavor" mixed into my beats for perfection.
Though I think I can reason out why the faster stuff is popular... I would assume that the faster music is more "music for your mind," while the slower stuff is more "music for your body." That faster "neurotrance" is interesting to listen to for a bit, but hard for me to listen to for long durations.
I mean you can even argue that at times 140's trance is fast for the body. Some of the best body music is electro/prog; but then the issue I find with that music is that it doesn't keep my mind busy for long. So for most of us, that "happy medium" lies in the 140's where you get a good mix of body beats and tricks to keep the mind busy.
I did hear some faster stuff that I thought sounded good though a few times. To me I've heard 3 distinct levels of Psytrance recently that stood out in my mind speed wise. The 140's stuff as previously mentioned is the "typical" body/mind balanced beats. As you go up a little bit into Darkpsy/NightPsy realms I don't really like the tempos as much. I would guess that these are in the 150's, but I don't know for sure because I wasn't up at the booth. However, in the third tier at some point as the speed increases (I can guess this is somewhere 160-180), I notice that the sound takes on a different characteristic entirely, and notes even sound drastically different. I actually thought it sounded pretty sweet once it got this fast. The closest thing I can compare it to is faster old school goa trance. I was surprised because after a few hours of the more typical 140's-150's NightPsy/DarkPsy it sounded distinctly different. Given, I still by a wide margin prefer 140's stuff (especially Full-On), but some of that high BPM glitchy stuff is fun to dance to.
http://www.soundcloud.com/djKAHN |
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FattyAcid
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 12, 2009 23:32
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whoo there padners.... me twasnt bashin no one, or their taste in trance, only surveying
As I mentioned, and, if you know me, or have seen me play night-time, I LOVE dark trance, and I like several tracks of the style I am mentioning...it's fun, sometimes ridiculously fun (and who doesnt love that?!?) ear/mind candy....but for me, it doesnt fall into that sweet spot in the ven diagram of ear candy, mind candy, and body candy that trance represents to ME...your mileage, quite obviously, may very
Like I said, I like my uncomprehensible music at a comprehensible tempo to fully dance to, not just to half of the sounds, I like to be FULLY controlled by the audio/psychic energy paradigm, leaving no sound unexpressed by my body.... but, and for the flying spaghetti monster's sake, dont take offense from my opinions... I wuv you....even if you are little sith bastards  ( just kidding again, I know I know, whether it's dark or light is a SUBJECTIVE statement)
see you at the gil show
Wake walking through your sleep dream
Esoteric Generation (Arkansas)/Beatnik Production(AR)/ Three Way Mirrors (West Coast) |
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jds
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 00:20
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Props to the thread starter. This topic seems to come up from time to time but usually worded as "dark sucks" or "everything but dark sucks" so it just goes nowhere. So respect for trying to actually make it a discussion out of it.
I resonate with some of the points from lizard and face re: finding a different 'meta' dance groove within faster bpm music that isn't necessarily obvious, but it's in there and rewarding if you look for it. I agree with keeping an open mind about it all (in keeping with the definition of psychedelic). I also agree that just because there's crap out there doesn't mean that there isn't some very creative, progressive, exciting stuff being produced in this vein that's worth exposing ourselves to.
At this point in my life however, I personally don't get that excited about high bpm stuff in general. I'm willing to check it out as an experience (for a limited time until I get bored) and I'm glad there are people exploring those directions but I'm also cool with accepting that it's not really for me.
From my perspective as an old school raver, I remember (for me, where I was at the time) '94-96 when hard trance, hard techno, gabber, rotterdam, and hardcore blazed through the rave scene. I make the effort to try to understand the subtlety of what's going on with 'fast/dark/neuro/etc' trance right now and accept it as its own new thing but I also can't help but view it as a resurgence of the same old thing that I kind of got over a long time ago? (that sounds pompous but it's not meant objectively, I'm just answering the original poster's question subjectively)
The hard, insanely fast shit is fun though! I give it that. Back in the day, the kids I raved with and I were all about transcending the obvious experience. We'd hit hardcore parties and dress up like preppies, or in pajamas holding teddy bears, to intentionally appear as out of place as possible. We'd spend all night together finding bizarre subtle dance grooves. By morning we'd have gelled into this alien hive mind dance circle, finding / sharing / experimenting with each others grooves like a new physical language only we could understand. The slack jawed meth head druggies drooling in the corner burning out from whatever crap they'd assumed they were supposed to load themselves up with the night before would be like: "what the fuck?"
That's what it was all about for me anyway, finding and expressing my union with a deeper subtlety of the experience than what the casual observer might be able to grasp. It still is actually. My psychedelic experience is always about exploring those reaches.
So ya, I get it, I've just gotten into other things. Music composed of understated layered melodies and rhythms that dynamically work with the space between sound has held my attention more than highly beat driven music since then.
I write way too much. I'd be surprised if anyone gets this far, but if you do...
For those that are really into it, how about suggesting some high BPM music (tracks, artists, labels) that you feel strongly positive about (and why) for those of us that don't pay as close attention to that side of trance?
Thanks in advance! 
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pete
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 01:49
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I can't speak about recent Gil sets, and most points have already been covered.
However, I did want to add that in my experience, the idea that the higher bpms are not danceable is simply not true. I say this from dancing to them myself, and observing dancefloors where other people were getting crazy to the fast stuff. Also, intellectually I'm skeptical that a rather narrow bpm range is uniquely conducive to the "trance experience."
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adamzero
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 02:04
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When people talk about their feelings about darkpsy they tend to be talking about one of two things, as best I can tell:
1) The speed.
2) The lack of pitch-based melodies.
These two aspects of the music have to be distinguished.
I listen to only dark trance, a lot of dark trance, and at various speeds, from like 148-ish (which seems like a common lower limit these days), to 160+. I would say that my body seems to prefer it, on the dance floor, in the mid 150s. YMMV.
But I don't love it because of its speed. I do need some speed. Music in the low 140s I find difficult to dance too. Too slow. But I don't feel strongly that it should be 160+, necessarily. But there are some audiences that do feel this way. Can't we let the audiences decide how fast they want it? If you don't like it, don't dance... if you don't dance, the DJ will either change what he plays, or not be asked to play again... That is to say, vote with your feet. I have been on dancefloors of totally excited happy people for ten hours of 160+ (yes, seriously), and I have been on dancefloors that emptied out at 155. Different crowds want different things. YMMV.
What I love is that the "melodic" interest, the part that moves the music "forward", consists of complicated and interesting *timbres* that are constantly changing, INSTEAD of *pitch*-based melodies. Melodies in trance are, let's be honest with ourselves, very simple. To my ears, these melodies basically always sound what is called "cheesy". So I prefer to listen to music without them. They don't sound cheesy to everyone, though. When people really *hate* dark music, when they call it not music, or souless and evil, when they say it is "just noise", what they mean is that they don't know how to listen to music without a melody, or would prefer not to. I don't blame them-- it is an acquired skill, and you're not required to acquire it. The first time I heard a dark trance song I couldn't make heads or tails of it, but now its the only kind I listen to. YMMV.
It just turns out, people who produce this music have started making it faster and faster, and DJs have started playing it even faster. It doesn't *need* to be played fast, but it is, so instead ask the question of why the DJs are playing it so fast.
Here are some reasons why that might be:
* It's pretty clear to me that to some degree what is driving this quickening of it is pure macho-ness.
* DJs play faster than the guy before them in order to stand out. When you increase the tempo, you get a boost of energy from your dancers. So you feel like you're DJing 'right'. This will tend to increase the pace over time.
* The aural and mental effect *is* different. I won't try to characterize in what way, because I don't want to be taken as insulting someone else's favorite music. I very much enjoy listening to experimental music at any BPM, if its good, in the safety of my headphones... including some I could never dance to. Some darktrance is ambiguously made for home listening, as a sonic experiment, vs. for dancing. That's fine, I think, but, YMMV.
So when you hear that f*cking neurotrance, ask yourself:
1) Do you hate the speed the song is being played (you'd love it slower)?
2) Do you hate the lack of melody?
3) Or do you just not like this particular song?
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Angel Ai
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 02:17
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FaceHead
FaceHead
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 02:46
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@ pete also think thats a good point.
to fatty i wasnt trying to fire back with any hostility. Everything is groovy here
to the forum:
the average bpm of the human heart is the low 140's so that only makes sense that there would be some hidden natural resonance in that with us creatures. However as we dance to 140 bpm music our heart rate will increase slightly increaseing the bpm of our bodies natural sync. So perhaps to stick with only low bpm is to supress your full range of experience. The same works in the reverse to only play fast music will prevent you from moving slowly and comfortably into the intensity therefore you will not benefit from it just be assaulted by it. in order to understand the intensity you need to be guided into it the first couple of times much like a psychedelic experience you dont just jump into the static you get a bit of time to acclamte your body and mind to what is about to happen. I think the term balance needs to be embraced more. the battle between dark and light is just more inner resistance the only way to win that battle is to compromise both...balance. embrace your dark side we all have some horrible thoughts run through our minds without our conscious control. they exist embrace that fact but dont get wrapped up in them. Same with the opposite. To only be happy will lead you to certain unhappiness eventually. Be happy when it comes but not upset that it is gone. In balance there is fairness and equal aprreciation for everything around you previously thought to be "good or bad". There is no distinctions. in balance everything is what it is and nothing more no categories no ideas of how the future will be based off of the past. Thats one of the great things about a psychedelic experience is that it helps to level the playing field of that..things previously seen as too weird to participate in are now fun, and things that seemed scary before may take on new value to you as well as there being terrifying little teddy bears in the running through the woods makinf whispering sounds...wait i thought i loved teddy bears why are they stalking me oh well better laugh at them maybe that will make em go away.. so it mixes up all of your decisions on how you should feel about an experience before having it. However that dont come unless you allow yourself to be open to it. dArk and light its all the same. we are all shooting for the same goals essentially. This sort of separation is like having a constant infection in our scene it aint gonna kill us but it will keep us weak.
We go over and over this again and again in the scene and everytime i get the feeling that we are missing the point of all this by talking about it at all. no matter if its a discussion or a type brawl its still not the point. we all have our tastes but to hold onto them so tightly that we inhibit ourselves from new experiences well thats just silly now.
Hear what im sayin... its not important.
if you dont feel it at that moment walk away but dont lie to yourself. you are capable of enjoying any experience if you intend to enjoy it just as you can always find the flaws in anything if thats what you are deciding to pay attention to.
MAybe in the future we should put more time and effort into ideas on how to make events better for everyone. ITs been long proven that the people like a steady ever evolving flow in the lineup with a wide variety all locking into place with eachother lets move onto the next idea. Lets advance past this.
to clarify this is not directed towards anyone its directed to all of us including myself.
i hope this could be of help to others its definately been a huge help to me
just remember when you think you are searching for happiness you are in fact searching for balance or peace. |
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AumShantiAum
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 03:11
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I dont see a problem with 160+ bpm music as long as it is done creatively and intelligently. Personally my favorite psychedelic music is in the 146-155 range, but I feel it is good and even necessary to have 160+ music. At the most intense hours of the night I really love it, I mean its like a complete experience, getting totally drawn into a psychedelic whirlwind of sounds, feelings, emotions, visuals. In Goa Gils case he plays extremely fast music in the daytime and I think its fantastic to come to a Goa Gil party at like 12 pm and see people completely losing it on the floor. Goa Gils night time music is a whole different scene then I have ever experienced at any party, and sure I didnt always like his night-time music 100%, but I dont think you are suppose to like the music 100%. I mean this is a psychedelic trance we're talking about. And the psychedelic experience isnt always 100% consistent bliss and happiness. Expanding your mind can bring you into weird and strange realms and its all part of the experience. Its only fitting that the music should replicate the psychedelic experience to some degree. And as far as I have known psychedelic music has always been a bit weird, alien, experimental and (you can disagree if you want) pushing the boundaries. We seem to have this idea that fast bpm music can only be played in the night time which is dead WRONG. There is plenty of high bpm music that is fun, funky and intelligent and works damn well in the daytime too. And I will say that many people are too close minded about high bpm music. I agree that there is a lot of shit high bpm music that is being made with some kind of dark-industrial-terror overtone, but theres also incredibly intricate psychedelic music in the high bpm range. And OFCOURSE psychedelic trance is about finding the groove. And that groove isnt always easy to find, but good psytrance has a groove (yes even the 160+bpm has a groove, you have to listen hard to the music instead of just hearing it passively) and once you find it you are set. As far as some artists that make high bpm -intelligent-intricate music which I enjoy (im not sure if these artists only make 160+ bpm music but I know they make very fast music):
Fractal Cowboys
Freaks of Nature
Squee
Furious
Cosmo
Savage Scream
Far East Ghost
Technical Hitch
Hishiryo
bOM
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kameleonpangea36
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 04:19
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Ive only seen Gil once at deerfields, I went into with an open mind because i love darker psy trance but it was way to brutal for me. i think for most of the crowd too because everybody scattered pretty quickly. but that was 24 hrs of non stop banging.. a couple hours of high bpms doesnt bother me so much. it can be pretty cool from a distance sometimes. but the average party goer will be scarred away for sure.
label: www.pureperceptionrecords.org
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bastardsamadhi
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 04:20
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Quote:
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On 2009-01-13 00:20, jds wrote:
At this point in my life however, I personally don't get that excited about high bpm stuff in general. I'm willing to check it out as an experience (for a limited time until I get bored) and I'm glad there are people exploring those directions but I'm also cool with accepting that it's not really for me.
From my perspective as an old school raver, I remember (for me, where I was at the time) '94-96 when hard trance, hard techno, gabber, rotterdam, and hardcore blazed through the rave scene. I make the effort to try to understand the subtlety of what's going on with 'fast/dark/neuro/etc' trance right now and accept it as its own new thing but I also can't help but view it as a resurgence of the same old thing that I kind of got over a long time ago? (that sounds pompous but it's not meant objectively, I'm just answering the original poster's question subjectively)
The hard, insanely fast shit is fun though! I give it that. Back in the day, the kids I raved with and I were all about transcending the obvious experience. We'd hit hardcore parties and dress up like preppies, or in pajamas holding teddy bears, to intentionally appear as out of place as possible. We'd spend all night together finding bizarre subtle dance grooves. By morning we'd have gelled into this alien hive mind dance circle, finding / sharing / experimenting with each others grooves like a new physical language only we could understand. The slack jawed meth head druggies drooling in the corner burning out from whatever crap they'd assumed they were supposed to load themselves up with the night before would be like: "what the fuck?"
So ya, I get it, I've just gotten into other things. Music composed of understated layered melodies and rhythms that dynamically work with the space between sound has held my attention more than highly beat driven music since then.
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+10
Same experience here, it seems...
I got no hate for darkpsy hardcore headz, but I evolved out of the rave scene and the industrial/goth scene over a decade ago -- into the relatively clean, deep mix of goa trance and proto-psy... no need to retrace my steps thru cathartic intensity this time around ;-)
but more power to the next generation, I guess. Their poor little minds have already been numbed/desensitized so much more than ours were at that age, ol' Gil has to keep em shocked n' awed!
And I don't mind a bit of Gil or psycore to lightly snack on occasion -- just can't eat it up, i get belly-full quick!
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bastardsamadhi
Started Topics :
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Posted : Jan 13, 2009 04:38
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On 2009-01-13 02:04, adamzero wrote:
What I love is that the "melodic" interest, the part that moves the music "forward", consists of complicated and interesting *timbres* that are constantly changing, INSTEAD of *pitch*-based melodies.
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I'm perfectly fine with timbre_shift-based compositions that ignore pitch-based melodies, IF said timbres are new and interesting.
It's pretty hit or miss, and having been programming synthesizers for a hot minute/decade here... I feel like I've heard pretty much all the squirts.
I am much more impressed with elements that make sense with the DYNamICS and composition of the music, rather than turning all the knobs on a softsynth while the 16th notes sputter on.
I think FM squirts and duck balls are still as cool as the next sound, but it seems just about every psytrancer has gotten carried away with the fartfest -- only for the fart's sake, it seems!
sooner or later, you've heard all possible timbres, and the other elements of music (perhaps melodies, or *** different rhythms ***) have to come back into play for things to continue being stimulating.
plus, you have to admit, the "non-pitch melody timbre shifting" paradigm of musical composition can often be a clever cover or justification for lack of traditional musical knowledge/skills ;-)
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* It's pretty clear to me that to some degree what is driving this quickening of it is pure macho-ness.
* DJs play faster than the guy before them in order to stand out. When you increase the tempo, you get a boost of energy from your dancers. So you feel like you're DJing 'right'. This will tend to increase the pace over time.
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yup, survival of the fittest organism perhaps... nature's perfect KILLARGH! bigger/faster/stronger/harder/denser/darker ;-) 
It's such a game.
I choose not to play!
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bastardsamadhi
Started Topics :
9
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437
Posted : Jan 13, 2009 04:59
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Quote:
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On 2009-01-13 00:20, jds wrote:
That's what it was all about for me anyway, finding and expressing my union with a deeper subtlety of the experience than what the casual observer might be able to grasp. It still is actually. My psychedelic experience is always about exploring those reaches.
So ya, I get it, I've just gotten into other things. Music composed of understated layered melodies and rhythms that dynamically work with the space between sound has held my attention more than highly beat driven music since then.
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+1000 |
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OpenSourceCode
Datavore
Started Topics :
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660
Posted : Jan 13, 2009 06:20
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I love neuro.
I've never been to a Gil show. Frankly, I've only heard a couple dj's get up into the ranges that make me really happy. Isvara did it right at the end of his set at the ocelot/koxbox party here in NY recently.
I produce and play dub reggae and chillout. That's 62-128. Emphasis on the low sixties. I hate metal. I think it's retarded. I am not an "angry" person. (cranky, yes. angry, no) So don't try to put that crap on me.
But i really like the turbo-neuro-whatever you want to call it. The fast shit just winds me up right. And not the "dark." Chainsaws and girls screamin' don't freak me out. They just annoy me and take me out of my trance.
But the fact is, if I'm gonna pay my money to go to a psy trance party, I wanna hear the fastest, wildest most bizarre music I've ever heard in my life. Otherwise, why would i be there? If i wanted guitars and singing and stuff I would go to a damn rock concert. Which I do, from time to time.
And as for the dancing thing, I don't really stomp so much these days. I mostly just stand there and do this little booty/head syncopated shake move and drink beer AND STUDY THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF THE MUSIC. Let it run all over me and analyze it within an inch of its life. Also, i converse with my friends. I don't jump up and down, and I don't run around in circles. I find that kind of tacky, honestly. But to each his own. Maybe if i were a super-duper energetic dancer I would want slower music, but if i dance like a madman, I can't stay up all night.
Point being: more neuro, please. All y'all haters can just wait till sunrise.
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