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Why 6-8 minutes per track?
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Axis Mundi
Axis Mundi
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Posted : May 26, 2009 11:34
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I think Johnny Cage died in Mortal Kombat after a flawless victory or something. 
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Philistines. All of you. 
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Why count music in minutes?
I want to know why most psy has between 24 and 36 bars...
Respect!
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In standard 4/4 timing, a bar has 4 beats of the kickdrum. So in a 7 minute track at 150 bpm, a track would have 1050 beats, or 262.5 bars. I believe what you're referencing is actually a measure of 8 bars, but that's slightly different.
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Xolvexs
IsraTrance Senior Member
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Posted : May 26, 2009 12:09
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i think its because electronic music unlike the mainstream has far more in common with classical music (western eastern etc) and most of these pieces are very long. Also another reason could be that most of the artist who make this style are typically so engrossed in the making and have more fun and the labels they work for are less restrictive and have more room for experimentation...also i think the djs feel more comfortable mixing and blending a track when its that long. another reason i think is because it takes an average person 6minutes to roll a joint and another 6 minutes to smoke it...and in the 7th minute they meet or become god 
 When death comes to your doorstep, make sure you are alive |
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gutter
Inactive User
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Posted : May 26, 2009 12:56
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On 2009-05-26 06:02, insane wrote:
other forms of music, which have vocals etc,,, why do they stick to 3-4 mins ?
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Because that permits you to experiment a lot so all the tracks are more or less the same in the way they are structured and the blond/black slut with pink thong that sings is very horny. |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : May 26, 2009 13:36
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On 2009-05-26 01:27, Yuli wrote:
Can I point out that my original message in this thread was edited, and dear Arafela sent me PM notifying me that my message was changed...
So if it is the "New Isratrance" way, to edit posts of Forum users, if they don't sound right, maybe it's my time to leave here.
Been here way too long anyway.
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It was a bug. We dug the original post from the backup and restored. And you can give us a little more credit before dissing.
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : May 26, 2009 13:37
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On 2009-05-26 12:09, Xolvexs wrote:
another reason i think is because it takes an average person 6minutes to roll a joint and another 6 minutes to smoke it...and in the 7th minute they meet or become god
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : May 26, 2009 14:16
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On 2009-05-26 05:38, DETOX wrote:
Shpongle is the greatest example of how trance music without limitations should/could sound like but in order to produce such music you must be a genious like Simon Posford |
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Well, I just listened to both Twisted and The Lone Deranger on Saturday afternoon. And while it confirmed to me again how great Hallucinogen is and how I still enjoy every second of that music. It's still, with two exceptions, all 6-8 minutes long...
I still don't feel we got to the bottom of this....
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : May 26, 2009 14:19
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On 2009-05-26 06:04, Elad wrote:
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On 2009-05-25 01:42, Yuli wrote:
We must remember that this music has no vocal, and no "real" message that can be said in words, and thus take out attention from the track dynamics and frequencies. So when it becomes too long, it's no longer uplifting.
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maybe i got you 180° , but dont by this theory songs with vocal can be longer but in reality they are 4-5 minutes ?
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Indeed - today most of the music is done for pure commercial purposes, and the radio / MTV / ETC demands short songs aka "radio edit" of 3.5 minutes
At the times when Rock n Roll wasn't committed fully to different Media Tycoons, you could find many songs that are around 10 minutes and longer. Please check out Pink Floyd ( Echoes, Wish You Were Here and heaps of others really don't need to mention any names we all know these songs ), Genesis of the 70's ( Supper's Ready, Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, Battle of the Epping Forest, and almost every title actually between 1969 and 1976 ), Led Zeppelin ( Kashmir, Stairway to Heaven, Rain Song and many more ), Deep Purple ( April ), King Crimson, Jethro Tull and the list is very long.
What helped those band to create those huge eposes, is the fact that they used Vocal themes as interludes to the long instrumental breaks - beautifully done in Echoes by Pink Floyd, for instance.
Today very hard to find something similar, since the commercial TV and radio stations simply wont play it out, the CD wont sell without the sufficient "Air" time, end of story.
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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Yuli
Retired
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Posted : May 26, 2009 14:23
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On 2009-05-26 14:16, shahar wrote:
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On 2009-05-26 05:38, DETOX wrote:
Shpongle is the greatest example of how trance music without limitations should/could sound like but in order to produce such music you must be a genious like Simon Posford |
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Well, I just listened to both Twisted and The Lone Deranger on Saturday afternoon. And while it confirmed to me again how great Hallucinogen is and how I still enjoy every second of that music. It's still, with two exceptions, all 6-8 minutes long...
I still don't feel we got to the bottom of this....
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Hallucinogen music is a good example why it's 6 - 8 minutes long. It has so much info, so for a listener those 7 minutes might seem like 15 easily. It never happened to me that I listened to Simon's track and wasn't satisfied because it's too short.
Shahar it's only numbers for crying out loud. If the content is sufficient and gives you pleasure for the time it lasts, why not just enjoy it?
You have a label, so demand from all your artists to make tracks not shorter than 10 minutes ( we both know you can do that hehehe )
A man with a "master plan" is often a woman |
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shahar
IsraTrance Team
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Posted : May 26, 2009 14:26
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I don't want longer/shorter tracks. I'm just interested to know why this happens. It's interesting for me.
And do you think that dance music has similar commercial constraint that affect the length of tracks like rock music does by radio as you described?
What are they?
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"Be the change you want to see in the world!"
M.K. Gandhi
"There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self."
Aldous Huxley
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 26, 2009 14:37
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On the grand scale of things, musical depth and complex progression need time to be achieved. Naturally, there are exceptions to this. On the other hand, most people have short attention spans and want the instant-satisfaction type of entertainment. 6-8 minutes is just the balance between the two which is found in the psytrance scene. There's the certain type of vibe people are expecting (including of course the artists which create it), and in order to achieve it, this time-frame is very comfortable.
And of course, there is the scene inertia. People who love psytrance by now have been indoctrinated with this. Posford is one of the people responsible for creating this "standard". But on a larger time-line, we can see that the average track length is steadily growing shorter. If in the early 90s it was usually 7-9 minutes, now it's shorter, with the trendier tracks usually in the 6-7:30 minute frame.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 26, 2009 15:28
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I think the answer of "it's how long it takes to tell the story for most producers" is the best answer you'll get. For my stuff, I just finish when I feel as though I'm done/have reached my goal, and apparently that's in the 6-8 minute range. It's an interesting question though...
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
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psysnoopy
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Posted : May 27, 2009 09:33
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when Sober : 8 minutes is enough, more will be boring IMO
when not Sober: unlimited pleeeeeeeeease 
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Outolintu
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 27, 2009 10:09
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On 2009-05-26 14:26, shahar wrote:
And do you think that dance music has similar commercial constraint that affect the length of tracks like rock music does by radio as you described?
What are they?
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one possible solution can be found in my 1st post on page 2. i "blame" dj-producers and djs
"no one ever sweats on a plug-in" -moby |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 27, 2009 17:31
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I'm not sure trends like this are set by just one part of the scene... there is an obvious dynamic between the artists, DJs, dance floor, record labels, and listeners.
All are parts of why this happens. In the end, the center of the bell curve around the average time has to be *somewhere*.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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rich
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : May 27, 2009 20:52
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I haven't read all the responses here so maybe this one has already been mentioned...
I would think it simply has to do with the sum of time given each part of the track. So the intro is given one to two minutes, then part A is given 2 or 3 minutes, etc, till the outro. So to question why 6 to 8 minutes per track you may want to start with questioning why 1 to 2 minutes for the intro, 2-3 minutes for the part A, etc.
If I were to guess, it probably comes from a standard for dance music, based on how many measures are needed to 'get a groove on'. Starting with 70's disco. Take a listen to Donna Summer songs, where the groove is played long enough to reach trance. Using that as an early model, and tack on intro's, breadkowns and buildups that became standard in psytrance, and you'll probably come out with 6-8 minutes.
I would also query some of the first composers and ask them. Probably get some insight there.
(I have to note here that Suomi style psytrance pays no mind to 'standards in psytrance' and does away with the formulas, which is why track lengths can be 3 - 11 minutes, and even more or less. (That's why I love it. no rules )
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