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What Song Structure Do You Use? Need Help! PT 2
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rocknje
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
13
Posted : Feb 9, 2009 23:31:06
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Hello,
Please, only serious replies to help me and anyone else who needs to learn about this topic. Thank you. Here it is again.
I am a beginner when it comes to electronic music production. I use FL Studio as my DAW and I am trying to make dance music...Trance being one of them. I have done many kinds of research and study, but I still need clarification on a few things.
I have found tutorials, example project files and listened to other producers music to try to see how they do it and I understand to a point, but when I try to compare the structure that they did to what info I found, I get confused.
From the research that I did, I understand that even though their are structures out there, it is up to you on how you want the
song to go, but for beginners I feel that a structure is a good thing until you learn the trade.
Example of a few structures I found.
1. Intro, First Body, Drop/Break, 2nd Body, 2nd Drop/Break, The Reprise, Main Body. Outro
2. Intro, Break, Motif and Build, Central Break and Build, Plateau and Build, Build to Climax, Theme and Climax,
Comedown, Outro
The intro, breaks and outros I understand, but it is the other parts of the structures I need some clarification. Do you normally stick with a 16 bar intro? can you do an 8 bar?
So here is the questions...Do you follow anything like these structures? Could any one explain a little further on what a climax
is? Body is? Reprise? Main Body? Do you guys follow a 8 bar, 16 bar etc rule when it comes down to arranging your song parts? Is it wrong to do a 4 bar?
Can you explain further what is a Motif? Riff? Lead? Do you make your Melody first? If so, do you make the melody in 8 bars? Is it wrong to have a 4 bar melody?
I have noticed especially in trance that there is about one main melody a producer comes up with in the song and they change synths, as well as arp, gate, stutter and pad the main melody they come up with to get variety. I have noticed other types as well,
but is it wrong to have different melodies in one song?
Ok, I will leave it at this for now. Thank you very much for reading and any help you can give. |
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orgytime
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
120
Posts :
1703
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 00:02
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well, much questions.
im not a pro, but i think in some things i can help you.
REALLY put a track of your fav interprets in *cubase, hear and cut it in parts (intro/breaks/leads...), then colour each part, that you got a good view to the song.
now your "how many bars can i use- Question" should be answered.
at first, maybe just try to copy a structure, if you cant feel it yourself (your post say so), after some copied structures you will know much more and can go on...
"lead" means to me 2 things
1. main
2. synth (melody)
"riff"
i know from metal, and it means the same like leadmelody, but it have not to be the main thing, its just one part with a synth.
you can use more melodies, but unfortunately the listener wont notice any real strucure then.
i got one track of those... 4 melodies, also a structure, and one melodie even repeats itself, but its simply just to much for one track.
save those melodies and make 3 tracks out of it 
better just use 1-2 melodies, where you got the feeling, that the whole song is waiting for this moment, you also can use this melody 2 times in one song, but take care, it fastly tend to be radio-like music if you do that.
in some way you want it, because you want successful music and at the otherside, you have to hide it wisely, because you want to be "underground" 
im feeling like you dont really listen to songs... i remember as i started and got those questions, i simply listened to the artist and counted... what can i do, what not... if he does it this long i can do it too... and so on.
hope this helps you for your way,
cheers
 www.soundcloud.com/orgytime |
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
576
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 01:00
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OK, bro, I dunno nothing but Ill try to help..
Here is the interview:
Do you normally stick with a 16 bar intro?
No, u can do intro long as u like, but longer than minute and half is much
can you do an 8 bar?
You can start bangin from the start, u dont even got to have 8 bar, just run straight into with kick and bass, whatever..
djs like such tracks more than ones with long intros so they dont have to rewind too much :-D
Do you follow anything like these structures?
No, every track I do has different structure, depends on the state of mind..
Could any one explain a little further on what a climax is?
Science quotes from wiki "In general, a climax is a point of greatest intensity or force in an ascending series; i.e., a culmination." So apply that to music and u get place where all parts culminate, its the place in the song where energy is at its highest level..
Body is main part of the song, where energy levels are normal and track keeps going at same intensity
reprise is a part of the track which repeats, meaning u heard that part already in the track
Main Body is same as the body but with more intensity, meaning layers, effects, whatever..
Do you guys follow a 8 bar, 16 bar etc rule when it comes down to arranging your song parts?
16 is ok, 32 is better but harder to make it good.. u can use 4, 8, 16, 32, whatever suit you the most
Is it wrong to do a 4 bar?
No, its great for bridges/breaks..
Can you explain further what is a Motif?
Its sound texture composed of few notes..
check wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motif_(music)
Riff is repeated chord progression played solo..
check wiki also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riff
Lead is main part of track which leads all others, stands in front of all others, its a main melody, in trance its usually a synth line but for example in dark rockin trance it can be a electric guitar..
Do you make your Melody first?
If so, do you make the melody in 8 bars?
8 bar is OK, I sometimes make longer..
Is it wrong to have a 4 bar melody?
No its not wrong but it will give different effect, melody will be more repeated, its ok for faster minimalistic stuff
I have noticed other types as well,
but is it wrong to have different melodies in one song?
No its good to make difference between parts of the track to make, but they must fit each other..
Again one more quote from wiki which makes psy trance so simple and easy to make
"Psychedelic trance has a distinctive, speedy sound (generally between 140 and 150 BPM) that tends to be faster than other forms of trance or techno music. Psychedelic trance uses strong bass beats that pound constant throughout the song, and overlays the bass with varying rhythms drawn from funk music, techno, electro, Middle Eastern music, and trance using drums and other synthesized instruments. The different sounds and rhythms and beats generally change every 32 beats. Layering is used to great effect in psychedelic trance, with new musical ideas being added on at regular intervals, often every 4 or 8 bars. This buildup will happen until a climax is reached, and then the song will break down and start a new rhythmic pattern over the constant bass line. Psychedelic trance tracks tend to be 6-10 minutes long. Psychedelic trance also makes heavy use of the cutoff frequency control of the modulating filter on the synthesizer. Reverb is also used heavily, with large, open sounding reverb present on most of the lead synthesizers in the track.
http://www.facebook.com/xrayzproductions
http://www.myspace.com/xrayzproductions |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 13:30
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Dude I think if u just ripoff structures from songs u like, ul do fine. (no-one will even notice)
There are other resources if you want to go the full route but if you want to be a musician that understands form, tonality, contour, harmony, melody, counterpoint, etc it will become a full time job.
imHo psytrance will never pay off the investment (coz normal people think its drug music and stay away as far as they can, and the druggies attending dont have money to buy music so they pirate it), so proceed at your own risk.
Structure in most Psy is an unstructured intro (or not but its not important) to set up an atmospheric mood. Following that are loosely repeating ideas superimposing together to sustain energy for long enough to not become boring in sections, up towards a climax, and then a suitable anticlimax towards the mix in of the next song.
You can add more interest and suspense by doing the opposite of whats expected at any point, all along taking into consideration the overall flow that is all important for dancers to not get off rhythm while not getting bored.
As I said - u can probably get this unconsciously from other artists tracks. Its even not illegal, since you cant copyright a structure.
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x-rayz
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
11
Posts :
576
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 14:02
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Quote:
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On 2009-02-10 13:30, bukboy wrote:
imHo psytrance will never pay off the investment (coz normal people think its drug music and stay away as far as they can, and the druggies attending dont have money to buy music so they pirate it), so proceed at your own risk.
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Unfortunately but this is true.. However if u engage in it fully u can make money in for example, making scores for movies, and sound effects, TV commercials, u can teach music and so on.. And keep psy as a hobby..
Lot of psytrance artists have some commercial alias under which they release cheesy commercial trance and fund themselves so they can make psy for pleasure..
http://www.facebook.com/xrayzproductions
http://www.myspace.com/xrayzproductions |
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Becktrank
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
537
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 22:23
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a simple question
one bar = 4 beats ?? |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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803
Posted : Feb 10, 2009 23:15
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that depends on the time signature. 4/4 has 4 beats per bar. |
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Becktrank
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Feb 11, 2009 16:51
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Thanks, so i think that is normal to do a change or introduce a new instrument in the music every 4 or 8 bars...right? |
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~d2~
Inactive User
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751
Posted : Feb 11, 2009 16:56
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Quote:
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On 2009-02-11 16:51, becktrank wrote:
Thanks, so i think that is normal to do a change or introduce a new instrument in the music every 4 or 8 bars...right?
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I have found it to be longer. More like 32 bars with a fill every 8bars. try it both ways see what you like. |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
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40
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803
Posted : Feb 11, 2009 19:36
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becktrank - its relative to the norm in your track, and depends on whether u want to have a dynamic or static feel. if you want a repetitive robotic feel go for static (always 8 bars for example if they are all 8 bars) , if u want a more human feel then do dynamic ( 32 then 16 then 8 for example will make it sound like the track is accelerating), at the same time consider that both elements will make a track more interesting.
U can even go 8 8 7 to make it sound like a surprise speedup into the next section, or 8 8 9 if u want a bit of suspense into the next section. |
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rocknje
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
13
Posted : Feb 12, 2009 08:43
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Hey everyone. Thank you for the great advice and time. I have to ingest these answers and I will write back soon. Thanks again. |
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sly
Started Topics :
3
Posts :
183
Posted : Feb 12, 2009 13:46
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Quote:
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On 2009-02-09 23:31:06, rocknje wrote:
Hello,
Please, only serious replies to help me and anyone else who needs to learn about this topic. Thank you. Here it is again.
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forget about and make music. if not possible then trip, listen to psykovsky and forget about after |
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Becktrank
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
38
Posts :
537
Posted : Feb 12, 2009 20:13
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Quote:
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On 2009-02-11 19:36, bukboy wrote:
becktrank - its relative to the norm in your track, and depends on whether u want to have a dynamic or static feel. if you want a repetitive robotic feel go for static (always 8 bars for example if they are all 8 bars) , if u want a more human feel then do dynamic ( 32 then 16 then 8 for example will make it sound like the track is accelerating), at the same time consider that both elements will make a track more interesting.
U can even go 8 8 7 to make it sound like a surprise speedup into the next section, or 8 8 9 if u want a bit of suspense into the next section.
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thank for you answer, but sorry my ignorance can u explain this a bit more? like if i want a dynamic feel as you said, should I wait 32 (bars??) and make a change (introduce a new instrument) then wait 16 bars and introduce other, than wait 8bars and introduce another??
32 bars with 4beats every bar istn to much time to wait to make a change?
that`s it or i got the wrong way?
thank you for the patient |
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bukboy
Hyperboreans
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
803
Posted : Feb 13, 2009 10:38
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Ok
Let me explain in the shorter case of melodies that are 2 bar 1 bar half bar long then u can extrapolate what I meant to 8 16 etc.
Consider a melody that repeats ever 2 bars. Its quite long... it gives people the sense that what they are listening to repeats every 2 bars so its as if they spread out their mental repetitive dance moves over that period.
Now if you shorten the melody to one bar, and repeat that 1 bar twice, what will happen is that it will seem that all of a sudden there is less time to do the dance moves. Sort of an acceleration...
And in fact that is what its called - rhythmic acceleration.
To the listeners it will seem like the melody is now repeating more often faster. And therefore it will seem as if there is more energy.
Now if u shorten the melody to half a bar, and repeat it 4 times, the length of the overall structure will remain the same, but it will seem like even more urgency has been introduced into the mood of the track.
Thats as far as melodies go.
Now u can do the same thing with sections of 2 4 8 bars for example. a section is made up of repeating ideas that are mostly very similar. And if u repeat the ideas over a shorter period or longer, again it will seem like there is acceleration or deceleration.
For example
lets say section A consists of melody 1, 1, 2, 1 , section A is 4 bars long (if melody 1 and 2 are 1 bar each). And section B consists of melody ( 1,2,3,3,4,4,3,3 ) so section B is 8 bars long, if you play section B once then section A twice, it will seem like there is acceleration, but on a section level, even though the same amount of time is taken as would be if u played B twice.
U should listen to some tracks and see how this is used to increase and decrease the energy of a track.
Any help?
Generally what artists do is they start of with long sections, and start making shorter and shorter sections to increase energy, then if the energy builds up enough they can either make a longer section to lower the energy, or make a really long section as if starting from beginning for a nice contrast.
From there they build up again with shorter sections, or if they want to end tehy songs, then they make em longer.
understand?
Hope it helps |
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Becktrank
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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537
Posted : Feb 13, 2009 17:06
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I figured out what you are saying, just need a bit time to do some experiments on my FL.
thanks bro |
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