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What is your excuse for downloading iillegal mp3?
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Freeflow
IsraTrance Full Member
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3709
Posted : Jan 12, 2009 16:11
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On 2009-01-12 13:21, sergeantpepper666 wrote:
so if I go to a jewellry shop tomorrow and steal a diamond ring and don't get caught it is all good then? I should feel ok with this?
because no matter what you say downloading a copyrighted song illegally is exactly the same thing
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Yeah for fuck sake! if you get away with it and can sell those dimond rings you be a happy fool!
Nah for real of course the crime is always different depending on the risk of getting cought and the price you have to pay for the crime... and general public etics.. the view of the crime by the society..
though nowdays i dont think you have to download anything, most music is on youtube or myspace... and you can always use freecorder to record the tracks from there if you want them 
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mez
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 12, 2009 17:31
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Content should be free.
art making is not about making money.
artists should be willing to get there message out as cheaply as possible within reason and accordance to society.
so if this means free downloads for the massess and high quality dj freindly tracks being sold at a monetary value than so be it.
do artists support themselves by getting gigs or by selling cds?
don't many big names charge 1000 dollars a gig?
if you played 1 gig a month, and had some kind of other income you'd be alright.
now is this right?
maybe, I mean I am willing to drop a pretty penny once a season to see an amazing line up.
let's subvert the system instead of becoming another material sub-culture.
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O-I
Started Topics :
8
Posts :
315
Posted : Jan 14, 2009 18:21
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People love to share music with their friends, 'hey listen to this , it's wicked...' it's a great way of spreading the word about the music that we love. The modern age of p2p is an extention of that, it's kind of amazing how you can now get anything you want for free. I have always bought plenty of music since an early age, I own 1000 original cds, but since I owned a pc I have downloaded plenty more albums that I never would be able to afford normally. This hasn't effected my buying habits, I still spend between £30-40 per month on legal downloads and cd's. I find more and more artists and labels via the net, I'll buy the stuff I really like, so I don't see a problem. I very rarely copy stuff for friends, if I do I'll make sure it's not Wav !!
I am a DJ so I want the best quality sounds, I really wish more labels would just forget cd's and offer Flac or Wav for the same price as cd's, Beatport charge a rediculous amount for Wavs so I buy 320 mp3's - but I'd much rather have full quality files. |
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
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368
Posted : Jan 14, 2009 22:51
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On 2009-01-12 17:31, mez wrote:
Content should be free.
art making is not about making money.
artists should be willing to get there message out as cheaply as possible within reason and accordance to society.
so if this means free downloads for the massess and high quality dj freindly tracks being sold at a monetary value than so be it.
do artists support themselves by getting gigs or by selling cds?
don't many big names charge 1000 dollars a gig?
if you played 1 gig a month, and had some kind of other income you'd be alright.
now is this right?
maybe, I mean I am willing to drop a pretty penny once a season to see an amazing line up.
let's subvert the system instead of becoming another material sub-culture.
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Content should be free in a free world...unfortunately the one which exists does not align with such an ideal.
Art might not be about making money, but when the art is used as a commodity by other people, something should be given back. Painters, writers, dancers all make money off their work, as time goes into making art, time taken away from having a regular job, the artist needs to feed his/her belly and pay for basic necessities to survive and to produce the art...where would such money come from if the content was absolutely free??
Many artists might have a supplement income, but a huge majority do not, simply out of a time constraint..if one devotes all day to one's art, it doesn't leave much time to engage in a job.
I agree that artists need to get their content out within reason and accordance with society, but this is the problem...society wants a free ride, society wants everything as cheap as possible, society prefers not to pay if such an option exists...it's not an ideal or fair society so such a theory doesn't work.
Few big names may make $1000 a gig, very few have gigs more than twice a month...thus one could have a $2000 dollar income (and this is an optimistic figure).....$2000 dollars a month is below the poverty line my friend in most countries.
Artists usually support themselves via their art, be it performing or selling their art... selling the music is as important as playing the music, why does such a thought process exist that indicates it should be free??
Don't you pay for the food you eat..YES because the option of free food doesn't exist.
Don't you pay for the electricity, internet and space you use?? YES cause these cannot be procured by any free means..
Don't you pay for the clothes you wear?? usually YES...there is always a means of exchange.
It's not about being a material culture it's about giving something for what you get...unfortunately the barter system is done with and the medium of exchange is money, hence the payment...throughout history all artists have been paid...many had patrons who took care of their needs and thus in days gone by the world witnessed the advent of fantastic artists...These days such patronage is lost, people find other ways to access the art without giving anything back, thus the downward spiral in this scene as far as the quality is concerned....
I understand the need for alternative accessibility to the music, but I do not understand the concept of expecting it for free....I also have huge doubts on whether those who download illegally would suddenly have a change of heart and want to pay for a track if it was available as a digital download, simply because WHY PAY if one can get it for FREE..
Now if no one could access the music only by paying for it, if there was no such thing as illegal downloading, it would be a whole different story..the music might actually be available for alot cheaper, the quality would increase and no one would even bitch about it in the same manner that no one bitches about paying for the food they eat simply because there is usually no other alternative.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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V3NOM
Inactive User
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Posted : Jan 15, 2009 00:48
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Frai, you make a good point, and one that had not yet crossed my mind.
Economy and pricing is demand driven, and seeing as ILLEGAL downloading has stopped the demand for actual cd's, prices are still relatively high because of this.
The other fact is that even if an artists wanted o give his music away for free online, he/she still needs to pay for the bandwith/web site and so on.
In the end,no matter what you say, a donation is needed at least to help keep a web site running.
You cannot escape the fact that in society now-a-days you need money to live. Even for a basic standard of living.
And if your only source of income is your music, then aroudn $2000 is not enough unless your a single person living in a hole.
If you have a partner, or are married and have a family, this money is not worth anything at all!
It is ridiculous to think a musician shoudl give his music for free because it is art!
Well the engagement ring I want to propose to my girl shoudl be free! It is art no?
Can you please follow your own rules Mez and tell me where I can get a diamond ring for free?
You can't because your excuse is bullshit and you know. gte your head out of the sand and into the real world, nothing in life is free. NOTHING!
And you destroy yourself in body, mind and soul everytime you steal a single mp3.
Disgusting attitudes!
I hate you, you hate me, we are all so hap hap happy! |
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Basilisk
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Jan 15, 2009 01:08
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On 2009-01-15 00:48, sergeantpepper666 wrote:
The other fact is that even if an artists wanted o give his music away for free online, he/she still needs to pay for the bandwith/web site and so on. |
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Not necessarily. I am here to help artists interested in distributing their creations for free. There are also free hosting services such as archive.org for anyone who wishes to figure things out on their own. The great thing about a gift economy is that is encourages cooperation and partnership among the people involved. For instance, I regularly answer emails and IMs about online distribution and often step in to help new netlabel and independent artists getting their work out there.
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On 2009-01-15 00:48, sergeantpepper666 wrote:
In the end,no matter what you say, a donation is needed at least to help keep a web site running. |
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This is true. Keeping Ektoplazm alive costs me several hundred dollars a month right now--and I am a jobless university student! Ad revenue covers some of it but there is a big shortfall. I am glad I receive some donations every now and then--a bit of extra cash can go a long way and certainly motivates me to keep working on the site!
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Pt.
IsraTrance Senior Member
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236
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Posted : Jan 15, 2009 03:52
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My short reply:
It's free, it's possible, it's a nice way to preview and get to know a album before buying.
peace
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mez
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 15, 2009 20:28
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Sgt pepper and Fria,
I said it should be free, as an ideal. Obviously it can't. I am hoping that musician and artist will realize that what they make is not essential for life so really, most people won't give a shit. Being an artist is not a career, it’s a lifestyle for 99.9 percent of artists. Your career is the reality (how you pay for food, clothes and festivals etc.), the art is the ideal.
I am simply saying that in our time, media of all kinds is shared quickly and cheaply. You can find high res images of art all over the internet, are they the same as the real thing, hell no. Is an mp3 the same thing as holding the album and listening to its uncompressed glory? No.
This is not a bad thing, it means ideas are spreading so fast, we can barely keep up. I become immersed in new genres and musical scenes in a matter of days, just from streaming media, downloads and wasting time on forums just like this one.
Everyone the system is changing. We are all owning less and less of our ideas and work. They are becoming more and more public domain.
Why not embrace this?
And just a side note, How much of the money you think you own have you ever seen physically?
By the way don't you dare call me disgusting, Your the one who thinks nothing is free, did the person you by the ring for cost something? Is their love a commodity?
The ring is material, is music just material?
Fria, do you believe that art is worse than it was when there were patrons?
Back then artists didn’t even get to pick what they made, they literally were servants. Some of them were extremely talented granted, But I am more interested in freedom.
You feel that by more people having access to art and they not contributing anything in return and we have a downward spiral?
What about all of the thousands of people that are inspired on a multiplicity of levels to create as well. Maybe one or two of them will create the next lone deranger. Maybe one or two of them will be the next Alex Grey. Art is a continuum |
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Tula
Started Topics :
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603
Posted : Jan 15, 2009 20:40
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On 2009-01-15 03:52, spytooned psytones wrote:
My short reply:
It's free, it's possible, it's a nice way to preview and get to know a album before buying.
peace
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word 
LIFE Is Just The Choice Between FEAR and LOVE.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1fDq9LnzFk |
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Fria Tantrumm
Started Topics :
5
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368
Posted : Jan 15, 2009 22:36
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Quote:
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On 2009-01-15 20:28, mez wrote:
Sgt pepper and Fria,
I said it should be free, as an ideal. Obviously it can't. I am hoping that musician and artist will realize that what they make is not essential for life so really, most people won't give a shit. Being an artist is not a career, it’s a lifestyle for 99.9 percent of artists. Your career is the reality (how you pay for food, clothes and festivals etc.), the art is the ideal.
I am simply saying that in our time, media of all kinds is shared quickly and cheaply. You can find high res images of art all over the internet, are they the same as the real thing, hell no. Is an mp3 the same thing as holding the album and listening to its uncompressed glory? No.
This is not a bad thing, it means ideas are spreading so fast, we can barely keep up. I become immersed in new genres and musical scenes in a matter of days, just from streaming media, downloads and wasting time on forums just like this one.
Everyone the system is changing. We are all owning less and less of our ideas and work. They are becoming more and more public domain.
Why not embrace this?
And just a side note, How much of the money you think you own have you ever seen physically?
By the way don't you dare call me disgusting, Your the one who thinks nothing is free, did the person you by the ring for cost something? Is their love a commodity?
The ring is material, is music just material?
Fria, do you believe that art is worse than it was when there were patrons?
Back then artists didn’t even get to pick what they made, they literally were servants. Some of them were extremely talented granted, But I am more interested in freedom.
You feel that by more people having access to art and they not contributing anything in return and we have a downward spiral?
What about all of the thousands of people that are inspired on a multiplicity of levels to create as well. Maybe one or two of them will create the next lone deranger. Maybe one or two of them will be the next Alex Grey. Art is a continuum
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No need to get heated about it...
But the fact of the matter is, you might see a positive side in it being free...but the truth is, it is work for the artist. It might be a lifestyle for you, but for the artist who puts in 12 hours a day, it's life and a job at the same time. An artist who puts in as much work as a doctor or a lawyer, why shouldn't they receive some compensation for it??
It might not be essential to your life, but for alot of people it is and for the person creating it, it is just as essential as having to eat 2 square meals a day.
Artist in days gone by were not always servants, and many of them defied their patrons (like Michelangelo), yet they got paid and created compelling art.
I honestly do believe that the quality of music in this scene is below par...and I do relate this drop in quality to the many things you speak about..
If art is a lifestyle, as you say, and not a job, then it becomes below par (though there do exist a few exceptions)..the quality drops if one has to devote time to a real job and create art as a hobby.
For you it might be a lifestyle, but to many serious artists IT IS LIFE....and they cannot hold a job because their end all and be all maybe their art.
I believe the whole world right now is in a far worse state it was before, I do contribute this sorry state of affairs to technology (even though I am a user), I do contribute this sorry state in affairs to everything becoming so public and convenient...Convenience is regressing the human being in general..but this is a whole different topic..And if art inspires one to create something even more fantastic, that's great, but something MUST be given back.
Freedom does not mean stepping on some else's toes...Freedom means living responsibly and with a sense of humanity...downloading illegally is not FREEDOM...it is an abuse of Freedom. It is using some else's hard work for FREE when that some one else who did all the hard work doesn't want it to be used for FREE. SO you basically don't care about the artist or what they need, but just wanna have a good time and for you this is Freedom??
I'm not talking about those who download to sample the music and buy, I'm talking about those who download and only download and rarely buy.
It's not me who has the disgusting attitude, it could be you instead...As you are defying what the artist wants..if the artist wanted his music to be free, he would put it out there. If he doesn't want it to be free, you basically don't give a damn about the person who created the music but just wanna enjoy his hard work..that's quite disgusting.
You talk of high resolution images of art work, but alot of the original artwork that someone bought costs a hell of a lot, so those artists don't care if images exist for the public, as the original exists with one who paid alot of money for it..this does not exist in this music scene. There is just nothing going back to the artist and hence the downward spiral...
The system is changing, and now you will witness it getting more restrictive due to this easy and convenient accessibility. Soon the internet will be policed simply because we have not been responsible with content. It's just a matter of time.
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Fractal Cowboys : Post Singularity COMING SOON :)
Orestis : Recursice Consciousness OUT
Psykovsky: Na Ve Ka is OUT! |
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V3NOM
Inactive User
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Posted : Jan 16, 2009 00:17
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I completely disagree with the statement that music is not a necessity. Art has always been a part of human culture from the ancient paintings to the use of music in a variety of everyday rituals and celebration.
As Fria stated, by taking a product illegally, this is not freedom, it is an abuse of your freedom.
Hey I know what it is like to be poor, I had very little money during high school and uni, and for those 5-8 years the only music I heard was at friends’ houses. I never downloaded an illegal mp3, never copied a CD and I couldn’t afford them, so I did the correct and mature thing and just went without.
Once I finished university and worked my way up to a point where I have for the last 2 years been able to afford to purchase music in the amounts I can now. But even so, I know that I have more important things to save for this year, such as the ring you mention, so after my final order next week I am going without any new music at all except for Ektoplasm for a good 8-10 months.
But if you want to continue making excuses and abusing the word of the term freedom, go ahead, destroy yourself.
I hate you, you hate me, we are all so hap hap happy! |
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mez
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 16, 2009 01:46
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OK, point taken. I am not interested in a flame war here. Let's not make this about name calling and judging. Sgt. Pepper please don't talk down to me, I understand what your saying about living without comforts, trust me. And I am not destroying anything. I am trying to help this scene from being caught in the undertow of a flawed system.
I was saying that art is not essential to human life, and it's not. We need air, food and shelter. Culture and art are incredible and basically all that our world is. But we made it, we thought it up and it came from us. We love it, but we don't NEED it.
Sgt. Pepper. You stated that art is a part of human culture. and I think we need to work towards making culture as fair and ethical as possible. So when I see a painting being sold for 80,000$ so it can sit in a private collection never to be experienced by the majority of humanity again, my blood boils. and when I see the opportunity for music: which is so inherent, that it literally crops up out of the ghetto's, out of the jungles, out of your minds, to be available for all, I can't help but think this is a good thing.
Fria, I never called your opinion disgusting. I deeply respect you and your craft. I would pay money to see you do what you do best. I know you are deeply dedicated to not just your art but the art of so many talented individuals. I am sure you are looking after their livelihoods.
I am an artist... and I can not support myself solely on my art, does that make it less valid? maybe not as subjectively good, but still honest and meant with all I can give.
Fria, tell me. and you can do this in pm if you like, do you support yourself exclusively on your artistry? I am not trying to take this away from you. I am not trying to destroy labels either, I am asking if we can destroy Capitalism and Economic hierarchy. I would rather trance not be so attached to this system. I think that the trading of digital files is a positive thing. The scene will only grow and splinter and be reborn by spreading the sounds.
I mean, if you never heard of a artist or a genre/scene would you shell of 15 bucks for a cd. And how many times would you do this?
I agree its the artist choice of course, I am just making a case for the open source and free media side. We will see what the future holds, something tells me that eventually, the grip of monetary power will loosen. If its one thing that makes people act, its hitting them in the wallet. So it will be interesting to see how human kind works this one out.
Maybe, in a few years after living like this for a while I will mature and say damn I need a dollar. But right now, I want to strive for a better world. One in which expression is sacred, and Ideas are passed around freely.
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V3NOM
Inactive User
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Posted : Jan 16, 2009 03:20
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Apologies for talking down to you Mez, can get a bit carried away when it is something I'm passionate about.
I guess you are right and I just didn't read it the right way, in that I think working toward using thenew ways of distribution, inc. internet, need to be taken on board.
I do know that when I'm ready to put tracks out tfor people to hear more than likely I'll be putting up free downloads at a lower quality, and probably offer the high quality downloads for a reasonable price.
Time to chill.
Sorry again for being a bit of a tosser and talking down to yuh Mez 
I hate you, you hate me, we are all so hap hap happy! |
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Aluxe
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Jan 17, 2009 05:37
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Downloading is only illegal in some places. So the “illegal argument” doesn’t quite work. And so I don’t understand why people try and call it stealing when it’s not at all necessarily so. It seems manipulative and a way to try and force your dogmatic robotic learned views on others. And regardless of wheather its illegal or not, is sharing MP3 freely morally wrong? Like are we going to go to hell because of that? Maybe making music (and all information) free is part of natures plan. But really, all those downloaded MP3s were purchased by somebody originally right? And they were only shared after that, yeah maybe to the artists disadvantage but it’s just like in the past you would buy CDs and let your friends make tapes from them. SAME EXACT morality, the difference is that it is now done on a much bigger scale, Oh well, in the past it was the consumer who was getting screwed, I guess now the tables turn. But so really, aren’t people in their right to share those mp3? If I buy a tortilla, I can make myself a taco, a quesadilla or share it with the poor if I feel like it. Correct? Yeah you can not make infinite copies of that tortilla, unfortunately (imagine if we could). But you can make infinite copies of that mp3, which you would think would be a good thing because it basically allows the whole world to share their music.
But at what cost these people ask pointing their finger at you!! Well that is actually debatable. Yeah sorry, maybe free file sharing is for the better of humanity.
I mean is it really a problem for the world? Or is it just a problem for your personal views and the artists that are not really adapting to the new ways? I think those who aggressively argue in a condemning judgmental way that it’s WRONG! are just a tad bit too damn sure of themselves. Because you never know, the fact that you can not enforce people to pay for the music they listen to might in the end change the focus of music and change things for the better even if we have to go through a phase where everything seems like its getting out of control. But it could be for the better, I mean, it’s a possibility. I mean maybe we are going to go through a phase where a lot of artists will stop producing music because of lack of money, and a lot of people will probably not even be encouraged to even attempt and make music on the first place because of lack of financial gain. But that may just mean that we have to adapt to new ways of making music possible and while some will give up the quest in the process, others will take on the challenge and where there is a will there is a way. I mean if all CD stores shut down for good, somebody is bound to find a way to make GOOD underground music without the need to sell CDs. So it may just be that we are moving into a new phase and of course you will get all these people shouting out that we are doomed and the music is going to hell. But maybe we are moving out of hell, and once we adapt things will resemble more heaven with great music for all of humanity for free. And yeah, perhaps there will be fewer artists, and only a small portion will be able to make a living through music. But that would not be anything that new, I mean artists of all kinds have always struggled because art is not like food or clothes, and to most people it’s not a priority. From Van Gogh to Mozart, great artists have always struggled with money. But things can get harder on one end but lets not forget that now with what you can do on a laptop, in the past you would needed a professional studio and a fortune to pay for it. So technology is making things easier in many ways so that more people can have access to a music studio in their laptop. And maybe the computers of the future will connect with our brain and we will be able to make music by just imagining it, real time ( I am talking about much much later in the future, he he). But the point is that the future will close doors but will also open some other doors.
But music is not going to disappear, it’s just too good.
And the less mainstream art gets, the harder it is to sell it, this is nothing new. And well psychedelic trance aims to be the most underground, counter culture, free from the sheepish mentality of the masses. And well in that direction the path gets narrower and less people are going to be interested in your music. Unless you are really fucking good in a broad kind of way like Pink Floyd. But for most people, listening to underground music not their cup of tea.
And I totally agree with Mez in regards to the economic system that rules the earth being a pile of evil shit. It’s like we are all prisoners of this dysfunctional system and if anybody can set us free it is really appreciated. Thanks for trying everyone!!
But really, pause for a moment and just think about the possibility of everyone being able to have all the music they want. Like the possibility is in our hands and you want to shut that down? Like who are you? Dr. Evil? And the worst part is you probably think you are mother teresa with your self righteous moralistic views on the subject. Maybe its nature that made this digital virtual reality available where we can access all information freely and we are just beginning to tap to it with the internet. In the future we will probably realize that we do not need computers so much and that we can access information from galaxies away simply by opening up our astral antennas. Like you download music from another planet directly into your brain... for free!!! Fucking PSYCHEDELIC. Sooner or later we are going to need to open up in one way or another, so why focus on little things.
So anyways, why should we be limited to having just a few CDS when we can have basically all the music ever produced available to us NOW? Like why, why, why , WWWWHHHHHYYY??? It’s almost like a crime to want to prevent people from this benefit when it’s possible already. Its pure evil, hehe. And it must be a conspiracy to try and tell the population that it’s wrong. Maybe it’s the way things should actually be with everything, not just music.
Ok, let’s cut a deal (for now). Everyone contributes what they would normally contribute if they didn’t have the free download choice and had to buy the CDs. And after that, all the music they were not going to purchase anyways, since they were not going to buy it then they should be able to have it because it hurts nobody. So buy a few cds a month and download the rest for free and forget the guilt.
Yeah I understand the concept of supporting the artists, but isn’t that each persons choice? I mean if you are not stealing, then what you support or not is your own business. If I purchased a CD why can’t I share it with all my friends (friends = the whole world)?
So on the one hand you have the uptight bunch pointing their condemning finger at you and telling you that you are not respecting the artists. On the other hand you have the possibility to say fuck it and I am just going to download all the music I want for free and hope everyone does the same under the hope that it will free the world but mostly just to get all the music you want. It’s quite a dilemma. Hehe
So do I take the blue pill or the red pill?
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V3NOM
Inactive User
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Posted : Jan 17, 2009 07:44
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Why do you need to have so much? FFS I'm a dj and I listen to music all day at my day job, and even with say 90 cd's in my case I'll never really get to listen to them all any time soon, at least not in a perfect setting.
Copy right, my darling Aluxe, is a global thing. If a product is copyrighted then it is protected under international copyright law in every fucking country
Even if you live in an igloo in the South Pole.
So it is illegal everywhere, and it is a crime, and stealing from somebody is wrong. So no matter what fucking religious or moral beliefs you have, by law it is wrong and you are a cockhead for doing it.
Over and out from planet 666, Aluxa-San!
I hate you, you hate me, we are all so hap hap happy! |
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