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what is the meatrix?
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Pointy
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
278
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 10:44
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I don't consider the treatment of the food I'm going to eat important
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Already here I was about to stop reading your post, because this statement shows, that you obviously have no awareness about quality of food and how it affects yourself whatsoever.
I can only feel sorry for you if you think like this. So go on eating "shit" and be happy with it.
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Look at how ugly they made the factory farms look and how idealic the family farm is presented
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They don't make the factory farms look ugly, they are ugly.
Again the question: have you looked more into the subject, than just watching the animation?
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the amount of animals eaten won't be changed
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It won't change from one day to the other, right, but the people who are aware of what they eating and how it get's produced, are also the ones, that stop eating meat in a consumptious way. If you eat meat with awarenss, you are greatful to the animal, that it gives you it's energy and enjoy a good meal with meat, but you are not one of those people, that stuff themselves with burgers and eat meat like candies.
Awareness about what you are eating is the first step to less meat consumption and healthy food.
  "*´¨)
¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·` * Magic is believing in yourself, if you can do that, you can make anything happen. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe..·´¨` .¸¸.·´¨`» |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
90
Posts :
2268
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 11:27
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I eat kosher meat. So do most people in Israel. Kosher meat requires inhumane slaughter of animals - and is less tasty than non-kosher meats (unfortunately). Blame all jews and muslims (they call it 'halal' not 'kosher') for animal cruelty. If I were to care about this point deeply, I would have to become a vegetarian. My priorities put eating meat above my care to farm animals, they are an unfortunate sacrifice for my luxury. We kill all farm animals eventually, I think that's as cruel as you can get.
Explain why what I said is wrong - per animal, factory farms cause less enviromental damage, less destruction of entire ecosystems, and much less harm to wildlife in general. So, we're not nice to them before we kill them, if we'll be nice to the animals then it really wouldn't change the fact that we murder them later on, so what's the point? At least we should care about the animals we aren't going to kill anytime soon, the ones that are a part of nature (and no, farms are in no way a part of nature). The main point of this video is NOT "harming animals is bad", it's "factory farms are bad". Explain why this isn't the difference between "I care about animals" to "I care about family farms". Insult me all you like, but at the very least reply to my points.
It's nice that you think I'm ignorant. I'm not. I have read quite a few sites on this (well, not on this point specifically, but it's included in most animal-rights websites), and of course a bit on crappy popular-science-wannabe sites.
And of course, a bit of humor on the subject:
http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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Pointy
Started Topics :
6
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278
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 13:18
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per animal, factory farms cause less enviromental damage, less destruction of entire ecosystems, and much less harm to wildlife in general.
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"drug programs - Antibiotics, vitamins, hormones, and other supplements are administered regularly, in part to counteract the effects of crowding": this is damaging to the environment as well as damaging to the people.
"Concentrated animal waste is polluting the groundwater, and creating dust, fly, and odor problems for their neighbors."
"Large populations of animals require a lot of water and are depleting water resources in some areas."
"processed feed - Feeds may be processed on site. While traditional feeds such as hay and grain may be fed to animals, other types of feed may be added or substituted (eg: cows may be fed food processing by-products such as molasses and cottonseed meal or in some cases poultry litter; calves might be given cow blood protein concentrate in place of milk)."
There are acres and acres of rainforest being cut down, to grow food for animals, which will never put a food ontu grassland themselves. This is destroying lot's of wildlife. Not outside your door, but in other countries.
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At least we should care about the animals we aren't going to kill anytime soon, the ones that are a part of nature (and no, farms are in no way a part of nature)
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Wild animals do suffer from rainforest being cut down to grow farm animal food. And frankly I don't know any cases of wild animals being killed by grasing cows, sheep, or other farm animals (as you were suggesting in you previous post). It is usually the other way around. And the discussion of what is nature and what not is very difficult. In your argumentation cows and pigs and so on wouldn't be nature, because they are domestic animals, which wouldn't survive in wildlife.
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We kill all farm animals eventually, I think that's as cruel as you can get.
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I don't think that it is generally cruel to kill an animal to eat it. You don't find it cruel when a cat catches a mouse and eats it, do you? To me it makes a big difference though, if the animal had a good life before it get's killed, or not. Not only because the quality of the meat is better, when the animal was actually running araund and eating grass from the field, but also because the torture of keeping the animals in industrial farms, is imo much more cruel, than the actual act of killing it.
"confinement - To save space and improve supervision and feeding operations, animals are confined in pens or cages. In some extreme cases animals may be confined in small indoor areas, unable to turn around or move without contacting other animals. This may increase the incidence of behaviors such as cannibalism, which may be countered through procedures like debeaking and tail docking."
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The main point of this video is NOT "harming animals is bad", it's "factory farms are bad". Explain why this isn't the difference between "I care about animals" to "I care about family farms".
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I am not only talking about the flash movie, I am talking about various different organisations, that are against industrial farming and protecting nature and wildlife.
As I wrote above, imo the act of confining the animals and threating them in the way they get treated, is bad. So if you are against industrial farming and pro family farms, you are also against harming animals, because that is what industrial farming does.
You can't turn everybody into vegetarians and that is also not my issue.
The issue is to make people aware of what they are eating and where and how it get's produced.
Out of this awareness the attitude towards meat consumption can change and in the longrun this can help the animals (wild and domestic), the environment and our own health.
(What is written in quotation marks, are quotes from the Wikipedia, which is a dictionary, not an anti industrial farming organisation) "*´¨)
¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·` * Magic is believing in yourself, if you can do that, you can make anything happen. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe..·´¨` .¸¸.·´¨`» |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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Posts :
2268
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 15:08
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You think that cows on family farms eat less? Where does that food come from? Is factory farm cowshit not cowshit? When a cat toys around with it's prey, slowly maiming it until the cat is bored, is that not cruel? Are antibiotics unhealthy for us? Vitamins? Do these things not exist in every vegetable you find in the supermarket? If anything - this diet would mean that less plantlife is killed to feed these animals. It's saving the rainforests 
My point is different - in family farms, cows eat the same amount (more or less), but are spread over a much greater territory. Did you see entire fields where all the bushes are in the shape of small cones (it's quite funny why this happens, I'll let you pick up on it on your own though) - and no trees grow at all?
My problem was with the flash movie - it's entire structure is aiming at the emotions of people, not at giving facts. I know how my food is produced - everyone that's ever worked at a kibutz for a short while in his life knows that, and I have.
And the Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Every definition there is given by a simple user that gives the information, not necessarily by someone who's studied the subject in depth, and in the vast majority of cases, not by someone who is impartial.
A study on the damages of industrial farming in comparison with that of family farming on a global scale has not been done, as no one was given the resources to follow all the ecological effects. The main points of most studies are no more than hypothesis at best, extrapolation via studies on different subjects. Just like a million researches proved that smoking doesn't kill, and all of them used very logical and scientific methods - until people actually bothered doing a proper research and found this to be total BS. Until such a research is given, I will remain skeptic to the findings and continue using Occam's Razor and my own knowledge to reach my conclusions.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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Pointy
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
278
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 15:55
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It makes a big difference, if you pour a bucket of urine on a small area, or speard it out on a big area. You can easily test that in your garden. The same goes for the cowshit and other excrements. Small amounts can be break down by bacteria in the ground and integated in the ecosystem again. Big amounts are an environmental hazard.
It is not the antibiotics themself, which are harmful to you, but the bacteria, that become resistend to the antibiotics. And hormones disturb your own hormone balance and is harmful to the environment too.
OK, the Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Dictionaries, lexica, encyclopedia are usually not written by people who studied every single subject they are talking about, true. The reason why I am quoting from there is, because it is fairly nutral and the description of industrial farming and not some kind of propaganda material. I can give you quotes, that are much harsher on the subject. It is difficult to find anything written in favour for that type of farming, exept the issue of "efficiency".
And of course this subject includes organic farming of vegatable for me as well, as the production of meat.
As I said earlier, if you think, that the way food get's produced is not of importance and that peoples ideas about how industrial farming effects animals, humans and the environment in a negative way, are based on assumptions only, than I can only feel sorry for you.
Bon apetite!
"*´¨)
¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·` * Magic is believing in yourself, if you can do that, you can make anything happen. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe..·´¨` .¸¸.·´¨`» |
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Kaz
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
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Posted : Dec 2, 2004 16:42
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When I said the wikipedia is not a dictionary, what I meant was that you could put in a new entry today, and even if you had no idea what you're talking about, it would be accepted there, without review by anyone. If you give me this as a reference, I have to point out that this is one of the weaker possible sources of OBJECTIVE information.
The studies which appear in all the animal-rights websites are in no way conclusive, but are phrased strongly. Again, Occam's Razor applied to this would mean: "think for yourself". You keep on adding more and more details which seemingly strengthen your arguement, but the most complex arguements are usually incorrect.
My arguement is simple: when people create something, it is usually not for altruistic purposes, and in this case, you can see the motives easily by seeing what facts are revealed.
While both of our arguements are true from a certain point, my arguement is stronger from a logical point of view. If you can't see this, then maybe you shouldn't waste your time feeling sorry for other people and poor helpless animals.
http://www.myspace.com/Hooloovoo222 |
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Pointy
Started Topics :
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Posts :
278
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 18:28
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I think my argumentation is very simple and I haven't been adding more and more details, as you claim. Already in the first post where I am adressing you I put a link, where you can find the different arguments I was using to explain, why I think industrial farming is bad for animals, people and environment.
The argument, you are using and which you call "stronger from a logical point of view" is in the same way applicable to the fact, that we are mainly having industrial farming nowadays and frankly I find it very weak.
"*´¨)
¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·` * Magic is believing in yourself, if you can do that, you can make anything happen. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe..·´¨` .¸¸.·´¨`» |
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Watter
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
184
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 19:30
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@Pointy and Kaz:
I han't read all of the argument but I'll post some facts for the both of you:
Pointy I have seen both Family and industrial agriculture so I know for a fact what I am saing.... not just somthing a friend told me or I read in a book.....
Family agriculture is okay in a utopian world, but in our world it is highly unproductive and given the fact that we NEED to feed the world the industrial farming is better.
another thig:
The cow Shit: If you don´t know cows are not created the same way porcs and chicks are... they are created out in the fields, and their shit and urine HELP to season the soil and thus make BETTER not worst. Just remember these are facts that are proven and have been studied.....
About porks and chicks: Porks are not as crammed as they are portrait and get a better treatment than in family farms, and again their shit is used to season the soil of the near by plantations.... Ah, I was forgetting... if you do worry about the envyromental impact of thouse plants you can just veryfy if the have the ISO14000 certification that is very serious organization. about chicks Iknow very little so I am not going to go into it but I hope I helped a Little bit in the discusion...
Pointy, this is not personal so don' take it as such.... I am just some one tring to show you that the is another way.... as I said there are planty of certifications for companies that care about the eviroment.... search for them...
Cheers
"open your mind....you might just see that there isn't anything to be seen" |
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Pointy
Started Topics :
6
Posts :
278
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 21:25
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Watter, I have been working on an organic family farm where there was cheep, goats, pigs and chicken being kept, as well as I haven been working on an organic vegetable farm. Industrial farms I have only been visiting, not been working there myself, but nevertheless I think I got quite a good idea of how the animals are kept and fed there.
I know very well, that urine and manure is benefical for the soil and works as a fertilizer, but it depends all on the doses. If you are putting too much in a certain area, it becomes poisenous and is polluting the environment. Also there is an increased amount of hormones and antibiotics in the urine and manure of industrial farm animals, which is harmful for the environment too.
I don't know where you have seen industrial pig farms, where the animals are not being cramped and treated better, than on a family farm. Certainly that is not the case in the industrial pigfarm I have visited and seen on documentaries. (Maybe you are thinking about indian pigs being kept in the local toilet and are living of human shit. Well, I agree, that is a mistreatment of animals, but not a common practise in family farms in other countries, I wouldn't even call it farming)
I also know, that it is not possible to stop industrial animal farms today, because the demand for meat products can not be supplied by family farms nowadays.
My point here was all the time, that I find it important to raise peoples awareness of what they are eating and how it gets produced and by that improve what we've got. The quality of food nowadays is very low and I think it would only be good, if we'd make it better.
A lot of food could be produced on family farms, if most of them hadn't been put out of business, because they are not able to compete with the big industrial farms.
At least in Europe more and more people are getting into eating organically produced food, not only because it tastes much better, but also because people became aware that all the chemicals contained in the comercial food are not healthy.
I hope, that this development towards higher quality of food will keep growing, for the sake of the animals, ourselves and the planet. 
"*´¨)
¸.·´¸.·*´¨) ¸.·*¨)
(¸.·´ (¸.·` * Magic is believing in yourself, if you can do that, you can make anything happen. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe..·´¨` .¸¸.·´¨`» |
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Watter
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
184
Posted : Dec 2, 2004 22:02
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I admire your point of view. But I think what people (and that includes me and you) should do is to look for enviromental freindly products and companies.
In my country there is a very rigorous control of what the animal can intake and of what they do with the animals waist...
Yes there is a balance and these industries try to keep these balnce since it is in theire interest to keep it.
Think about it.... thei do not whant to be sued for billions becouse they harmed the enviroment.... remember the cigaret giants that suferred great losses due to lawsuess....
They may not do it for hte righ reasons but they know that if anything is prooven agains them they will loose a lot of money... and thats the botom line..
"open your mind....you might just see that there isn't anything to be seen" |
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