| Author
|
What is Live? What isn't? - a point of honor?
|
subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Dec 4, 2008 13:45
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-04 13:37, Spindrift wrote:
If you combine elements to a new track you are creating music in my opinion...not using an identical skillset as when creating loops....but if the result is a unique track I still call it a musician.
|
|
wow, well thats an opinion noone can say anything about that.
For me it is a terrible long way from writing and performing deep purpels "child in time" to recombining a couple of loops into something "new".
In practice that anyways never is the case, usually the thing that DJs do is about max whats in the video above. thats really nothing like a musician for me.
But thats maybe just me coming from traditional music.
  Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
|
|
|
Medea
Aedem/Medea
Started Topics :
127
Posts :
1132
Posted : Dec 4, 2008 13:46
|
Somebody is better when he works offline (production), somebody is better when he works in realtime (dj, or live-act), somebody can combine both.
Imho, electronic music is something that is more "offline" by it's nature, because it is pre-recorded. I don't care what is going on on the stage, i'm listening to the audible output... (for sure, rock or jazz or any other live music is completely different thing). More, if i like some particular track of some particulat atist, and this artist is playing this track, i'm more happy when i hear exactly the same version of the track, that i know, without all that "live" shit =)))
I am a 100% offline person. I like when i have time to think, before I do. I don't have a laptop, so on parties I play my tracks from the CD's, but when I get a laptop i think that I will re-mixdown my tracks, with some parts muted, and when performing i will use a synth + midi-keyboard to play some parts live. (case 2 in SCM's classification). The only reason - I want to do something while performing!=) When i play my tracks from CD's, the only think i have to do is thinking which track should come next.
Anyway, can't imagine myself dancing on a table with the hands put in the air, jut not my cup of tea... Maybe only if very stoned, but even so, i doubt.
Imho, everyone should do what he is able to do good.
The only thing that is definetely bad in this all is faking (tweaking disconnected controllers etc.). Just don't get the point why people do it, very stupid indeed.
Just thoughts on-topic... 
http://soundcloud.com/aedem |
|
|
|
Spindrift
Spindrift
Started Topics :
33
Posts :
1560
Posted : Dec 4, 2008 14:33
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-04 13:45, subconsciousmind wrote:
wow, well thats an opinion noone can say anything about that.
For me it is a terrible long way from writing and performing deep purpels "child in time" to recombining a couple of loops into something "new".
In practice that anyways never is the case, usually the thing that DJs do is about max whats in the video above. thats really nothing like a musician for me.
But thats maybe just me coming from traditional music.
|
|
I can agree that there is a big difference between wring a proper song and the kind of DJ'ing I'm talking about.
And I also have a background in traditional music and see that many times as something very different from producing electronic dance music. There are a lot of tracks I like which have no melody at all, but the way the rhythms and sounds is weaved together as a whole does require musicality to accomplish nevertheless.
And again I like to point out that I'm talking about the potential of DJ'ing as an artform today, not what most DJ's do.
Most DJ's indeed mix tracks and can hardly be said to create new tracks when performing.
(``·.¸(``·.¸(``·.¸¸.·`´)¸.·`´)¸.·`´)
« .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... »
(¸.·`´(¸.·`´(¸.·`´``·.¸)``·.¸)``·.¸)
http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth |
|
|
|
Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
Started Topics :
170
Posts :
3642
Posted : Dec 4, 2008 17:17
|
I like your line of thinking Medea. I'd just be upset if some artist faked a live act that they charged more for. That's probably my biggest problem. You end up paying double for a LIVE set over a dj set. However, most people are content with a LIVE set if it's fully new/unreleased material.
http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound
www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group |
|
|
|
Djones
IsraTrance Senior Member
Started Topics :
267
Posts :
1766
Posted : Dec 4, 2008 17:59
|
I have mixed feelings regarding liveacts.
Thing is with music and artists, the artists always tried to show as much as they could on stage (playing instruments).
(that's what makes an artist and artist, the fact that he/she's able to do something extraordinary on stage)
But now with liveacts, basically all music has been written and 'finalized' as a finished product.
But now it's up tot he artist till what degree he's going to make life difficult for himself.
The more difficult he makes it for himself, and the more he's able to makeup for the missing part of his set(doing it LIVE),the more respect he gets from the audiance.
So what it comes down to, is that of course people wouldn't take too much risk as that could screw up the entire set.
So better be safe and have your music for 90 % finished and just fiddle around a bit with midi controllers and such, right?
It seems like the real challenge of an artist is not only doing the best music, but till what degree he dares to do things live in his set!?
But maybe I'm totally wrong on this, I just feel this way.
|
|
|
|
Colin OOOD
Moderator
Started Topics :
95
Posts :
5380
Posted : Dec 4, 2008 22:12
|
|
subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Dec 4, 2008 22:43
|
|
Upavas
Upavas
Started Topics :
150
Posts :
3315
Posted : Dec 4, 2008 22:58
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-04 22:12, Colin OOOD wrote:
Only when an artist embraces and welcomes the risk involved in actually being artistic on stage does magic between audience/dancefloor and artist become possible. The more risk, the more magic is possible.
I saw this gig in my home town last month:
http://www.colstonhall.org/boxoffice/whatson/Event765
Live band + orchestra... Total improvisation, total risk... total magic.
|
|
Wise words Colin, and they are not only for live acts, they are true for many things.
Upavas - Here And Now (Sangoma Rec.) new EP out Oct.29th, get it here:
http://timecode.bandcamp.com
http://upavas.com
http://soundcloud.com/upavas-1/ |
|
|
|
the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Dec 5, 2008 05:53
|
intereting discussion!
Quote:
|
The DJ can be playing a bunch of sounds and loops on top of a section of kick and bass filtered out from someone else's track and make a completely new arrangement from that...in which case it is more live than someone having a pre-sequenced live set tweaking some knobs in real-time.
|
|
true, and I know of an artist here who does make killer set doing that, and bills himself as a live. his sets are insane, and I highly respect him as an artist. nonetheless, his method has raised some eyebrows among some of the organizer's here, and along with his hesitance to release or publish a single track.
still, I would be willing to say that over 50% of an arrangement is in the kick and bass as that decides the flow, breaks etc. if your doing such cool things with your DJ performance, why not take it a step further and make your own kick/bass arrangements and burn to CD if that is your preferred style of performing, then you can call yourself a live with no worries.
when using someone elses material, your still using someone elses material, and when playing 'live' you should be playing your own original material, unless you have a great 'cover' or remix that reflects your own style. the rest comes down to performance, and there are shitty perfomer's and great performer's. some great bands/musicians are also challenged with not being able to sound as good as their studio perfomance live, and i think that applies to our scene as well. unfortunately, it seems the norm, with shitty finger waver performers outweighing by far
FWIW, i saw X-Dream here a little while ago, and despite the great performance/sound, i heard that they wouldnt even let their vocalist sing, that is was lip-synced.. kind of was a let down when i heard that, but i still like them... Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
|
|
|
soulfood
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
10
Posts :
875
Posted : Dec 5, 2008 11:30
|
[quote]
On 2008-12-04 12:00, subconsciousmind wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-04 10:58, Spindrift wrote:
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-04 06:39, the daleks wrote:
The DJ can be playing a bunch of sounds and loops on top of a section of kick and bass filtered out from someone else's track and make a completely new arrangement from that...in which case it is more live than someone having a pre-sequenced live set tweaking some knobs in real-time.
|
|
so, a kid combining existing loops from other musicians in garage band is a musician now?
Maybe that DJs does something/more "live" but he is still no musician. recombining someoneleses loops still makes him a DJ. it's another category and can't be compared to the work of a musician.
|
|
I'm going to disagree with this although in a very pedantic manner. If a five piece rock band is playing a cover set does this mean they are not musicians? No it doesnt, last time I checked. I think what you are talking about comes closer to live arrangement. The first I was aware of anyone doing the "live" electronic thing in the sense it has become known today was sasha. When I heard of him doing this i didn't think of it as live music, but more like a form of component DJing where individual loops and samples were triggered in sync instead of whole tracks, but to me it was still DJing. The difference being that sasha would re-edit/remix the tracks he was playing on the fly to suite the mood of the dancefloor. More often than not I hear trance "live" acts basically recreating their studio tracks but with hands on automation.
Either way for an audience that difference between a "live" set and a dj set is very minimal in the sense that they are seeing someone bobbing along behind some equipment with very little to show the audience in terms of true manipulation.
This is just me talking here but I think the trance party experience would be much more fruitful if rather than concentrating on ways to interact with their material (efforts of which usually seem like a desperate way to attain the "live-set" label), artists should work harder on making a visual show to go with their music.
I've been pondering this for a while and I think it is generally accepted that for one man to be able to perform a whole psy trance tune single-handedly is impossible so people let themselves off and maybe don't do as much as they could. But through visuals you can develop your own themes and feelings about what a track is trying to express, especially as trance is so ambiguous. Also a visual show is something that is not offered on a CD/mp3 so it's a good time to offer the people something they can only see in the live medium.
I'd like to add then when I see real live trance it's a different feeling, their's more energy in the air and the artists and the dance-floor are so closely inter-linked in an emotional sense that you can't deny the magic and that special feeling of being there. I'm talking about artists like OOOD, Highlight tribe, star sound orchestra and LDB system.
To this I'd also like to add that on those late nights/early mornings on the dance-floor where everything's a little deeper and nothing exists but the people and the music, this a where a (good) DJ rains supreme. With the exception of a handful of "live" acts all the memories I have of feeling those special moments have been at the hands of a DJ. What else can you expect when a DJ has access to a much wider selection of music and is experienced in picking the right tune to suite that moment best.
Further to that I'd like to say I havent ruled out the "live" act as a legitimate medium, I just think it's got a long way to go and the technology in which to aid that is getting more efficent by the day. In the mean-time I'd recommend learning to play a selection of hand drums |
|
|
|
Dennis the menace
DevilsDennis Sparris McHilton
Started Topics :
128
Posts :
2899
Posted : Dec 5, 2008 12:39
|
Eskimo in that clip on youtube must have been one hell of a visual 
|
|
|
|
subconsciousmind
SCM
Started Topics :
37
Posts :
1033
Posted : Dec 5, 2008 22:08
|
@soulfood.
I'd be even more pedantic:
From my point of view you can be a musician and not an artist.
Lets say there are DJs, Remixers, Musicians. (and all in between)
If they do what they do in an artistic manner, they are all artists. If they do what they do as a craft, then they are not artists.
Art needs to be unique, individual.
Apocalyptica playing "nothing else matters" from metallica: artists and brilliant musicians.
A band simply reproducing "nothing else matters" from metallica: probably good musicians, but possibly not artists.
I don't judge if one is better or worse, I just feel it as a difference.
Somebody rearranging someoneleses loops: remixer, possibly artist. but no musician.
Well, all oftopic, since that has all nothing to do how live a live act is.
I think what aeon, colin and djones said is about what makes it live:
Risk, possible mistakes, interaction. this is what makes it live. not mattering if DJ, remixer or musician.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch |
|
|
|
the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Dec 8, 2008 09:47
|
|
Elad
Tsabeat/Sattel Battle
Started Topics :
158
Posts :
5306
Posted : Dec 8, 2008 16:32
|
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-08 09:47, the daleks wrote:
to continue the pedanticalness...
a live performance should involve a musical instrument that is being played
|
|
sure , as long you call toys like laptops and virus or nord or TB303 or TR909 are electronic musical instruments.
and as long midi is very fair and legitimate way to play instruments.. cause i still got only 2 hands to play 10 channels , just trigger and tweak 2-3 channels is allready close to the limit..
otherwise i think you just miss the point of electronic music technology in live preformance as it done properly by hundreds... where the robots join work with humans  www.sattelbattle.com
http://yoavweinberg.weebly.com/ |
|
|
|
the daleks
The Daleks
Started Topics :
34
Posts :
584
Posted : Dec 9, 2008 03:38
|
I would ne-e-e-ever call these things toys! these are tools of the trade!
Quote:
|
On 2008-12-08 16:32, Elad wrote:
... where the robots join work with humans
|
|
i agree with you 100%... beautiful music is made at this nexus. only knob twisting and MIDI could be suspect, there should also be some live triggering, preferabbly on outboard or analog gear..
Gamma Riders EP out now on iTunes and Amazon.com!
The Daleks : www.myspace.com/thedaleksupreme
A-Boys : www.myspace.com/akibaboys |
|
|
|
|
