subconsciousmind
SCM
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 15:25:51
Well there has been a lot of talk about Fake Live Acts and such in this forum. There now even is http://www.deadact.com to give all this a new popularity.
Every electronic artist knows that the fewer people are in the project and the more complex a song is the more difficult it gets to really play live.
But where are the borders?
I thought about it a lot, and I came down to differ 4 sorts of "Live Acts".
Since I find it kind of lame to blame others I explain them on my own example, on my own risk...
1. Sort - The REAL Live Act
If I would fall dead, the song would remain in the actual state and not change at all. The song would be dead.
In this example I'm playing a loop and bring in new tracks as I wish. Once the song should go on I select the next loop/progression on the laptop and go into the next loop.
2. Sort - The Half live Act
If I would fall dead the song would proceed, but the most important melody would be missing. The song would be missing some life.
In this example I first setup the synth for the melody to come in (meaning bringing all the knobs in starting position around 30 seconds). Then I tweak the filter of the melody which is very crucial for the emotion of the song. If you watch my left hand precisely you can see that it corresponds to the melody line coming in at about 1 minute. it then develops into an acid line. My mood directly translates into the song. Tweaking the 303 in that example is terrible fun and my tweaking-moves definitly are no show but just me really being in the music. it's a sort of dance
3. Sort - The Live SHOW
If I would fall dead the song would go on exactly the same, but I'm not pretending anything else.
Obviously I'm not doing anything. I enjoy myself and use the time to give away some CDs . (I can't do this song live, since my original cubase files have been demaged. All I have left is the final mixdown). All I do is check the level before the end of the break to make sure it wont distort.
Sometimes I feel very stupid at this song, because I really have nothing to do.
4. Sort - The FAKE Live Act.
go to youtube - a lot of that there.
Well, I don't do that. Actually is the same as sort 3 but with the very important difference that the FAKE live act pretends to be doing something. The Fake liveact tweakes knobs with no effect, hits unconnected keyboards and sings into unconnected microphones. In short. He is a liar.
Well, sure thats just my point of view. and sure there is a lot of grey in between.
Personally I like to see the persons who did the music in person and I don't care if they play live or not. But I hate liars.
I think the pretending is a shame. And if we, as musicians have any honor or dignity we should never be of sort 4.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
gutter
Inactive User
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 16:13
hey SCM , seems like TB is your lucky charm man , fits everywhere in your setup & its always first thing to tweak in front of you i suppose.. looks great
-aeon-
Aeon
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 17:29
for what it's worth, my opinion is:
like i said in the other thread, i tend to think a set is live if:
a) you have to rehearse
b) you can audibly make a mistake
and
c) you don't fake it.
Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 18:00
As a one man act I, but originally coming from a live music background, I can feel your pain. I always wish I could do things more "live" than I do, but my music is just too complex to really be able to make it work. I tend to float somewhere around the category 2 camp, although instead of triggering key elements, I tend to have everything there and then add more elements and variations live, be it with effects, changing levels, adding percussion loops I have triggered up at various loop points so I can sort of improvise back ground break beat loops or improvising new parts and/or doing solo type of stuff on the keyboard. Until recently my computer was rather buggy and I could never really push it to the degree I would like but with my new computer I'm hoping I can push the envelop a bit now (provided I can get any gigs). This clip here is from my last successful live show I did before my old computer completely crapped out. following Aeon's criteria I definitely have to rehearse, I can definitely make mistakes for everyone to hear and everything is actually doing something, but sometimes I still wish I could do more.
Dennis the menace
DevilsDennis Sparris McHilton
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 18:19
why not just play dj sets with your own music and add effects, run loops, tweak som filters and other stuff on top of it and skip the idea of live since most of it is just bullshit anyways.
and btw, what does a fat belly has in common with fake live? i didnt get it...
Jikkenteki
Jikkenteki
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 18:25
In my case, I tend to add effects to specific parts, in which case I need to have everything broken into channels to do so. I play a lot with time based effects (delays, gating, etc) which would sound horrible applied to a full track dj style. Different people do it differently though so what doesn't work for me might be fine for others.
New Album: Jikkenteki - Flights Of Infinity
Available for free at http://www.ektoplazm.com/free-music/jikkenteki-flights-of-infinity/ PAR-2 Productions http://www.par-2.com
psyaudionamics
IsraTrance Junior Member
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 18:42
that chick was pretty hot LOL i like asian chicks... hehe thanks for that last video it made me laugh, gotta love it cheers
when i was younger i use to want a beard and at certain spots my hair didn't grow so id use a marker and cover up the missing spots LOL OH MAN!!!
did dat video brought memories, gotta love this forum
subconsciousmind
SCM
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 18:49
Quote:
On 2008-12-03 18:19, Dennis the menace wrote:
why not just play dj sets with your own music and add effects, run loops, tweak som filters and other stuff on top of it and skip the idea of live since most of it is just bullshit anyways.
because adding FX to tracks on CDs is exactly the same as adding FX to tracks within your computer. But within the computer you have much more possibilities/fun doing it. Furthermore some music simply doesn't work to be "after effected" it needs to be change at the source. mine for instance. I would never put an effect over one of my tracks... hell no... I hate that.
Quote:
and btw, what does a fat belly has in common with fake live? i didnt get it...
I just didn't want to point out another live act and I found it so funny that shes making fun of people faking what they do by faking a sixpack.
Basically faking is faking. Fake to do live, fake to have muscles.. it's all the same. it's fake. people try to hide what they really are/do
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 21:52
Quote:
On 2008-12-03 18:19, Dennis the menace wrote:
why not just play dj sets with your own music and add effects, run loops, tweak som filters and other stuff on top of it and skip the idea of live since most of it is just bullshit anyways.
I agree. Unless one really put proper effort into preparing a set DJ'ing with added loops and fx gives a better result.
Something I cannot understand is when people prepare the whole playlist of the set in advance. IMO that doesn't belong on a dance floor and no matter if you call yourself DJ or artist you should be able to adapt to the energy of the moment.
If someone tweaks a filter on a synth in realtime but have a prearranged track order IMO a DJ doing intro/outro is about 100 times more live.
And I don't agree you have to change the signal at the source...you can do a lot with looping, processing and by adding loops and fx which makes your tracks sound like completely new tracks.
Of course you don't just play the whole track trough one effect and consider that a live remix, but in some parts you can for example take out the treble in the main track and bring in another tracks treble with processing instead to make something new....of course you could have done the same in the studio an got even better results, but that's not the point. By modifying the tracks in realtime on the parrty you can adapt to the crowd and that is the point of Live IMO.
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Ascension
IsraTrance Full Member
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 21:58
I usually spend some time staring at the artist's computer or ask them a question when I can if they're doing a live act at a party im putting on or helping out with. If someone's faking it I guess I'd have no choice but to punch them in the neck....
I need to get a video of Primordial Ooze doing their live set, it's pretty cool. One of them plays the tracks and messes with the arrangement, the other adds effects.http://soundcloud.com/ascensionsound www.chilluminati.org - Midwest based psytrance group
subconsciousmind
SCM
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 22:50
Quote:
If someone tweaks a filter on a synth in realtime but have a prearranged track order IMO a DJ doing intro/outro is about 100 times more live.
And I don't agree you have to change the signal at the source...you can do a lot with looping, processing and by adding loops and fx which makes your tracks sound like completely new tracks.
Of course you don't just play the whole track trough one effect and consider that a live remix, but in some parts you can for example take out the treble in the main track and bring in another tracks treble with processing instead to make something new....of course you could have done the same in the studio an got even better results, but that's not the point. By modifying the tracks in realtime on the parrty you can adapt to the crowd and that is the point of Live IMO.
you can't "agree" on that, spindrift. As I said. "SOME Music" needs to be changed at the source other doesn't. Thats totally up to the song and artist.
As for the filter tweaking. I know what you mean, but you don't look from a musical perspective. I have no intention in adapting my song to the crowd. What I do is put MY emotion into the music. Thats what musicians do. They put their emotion into the music. And if the crowd goes cracy I go crazy too and the emotion gets more intense. thats live.
As I expect you spinddrift, you will say that tweaking the filter isn't as much emotions as ... , or not much emotion etc...
Well maybe in YOUR music. But in my songs for instance the filter movements of the 303 for instance add A LOT to the emotion of the moment. People who know my music usualy hear very well how much I could put into my songs. Even if I just do filter tweaking.
Spini, there isn't always "agree" "disagree" "right" or "wrong" "better" or "worse" but a whole world of different kinds of people, people, music, systems, preferences etc.
Some can go well with adding fx on their tracks either on the mixer or the pc others need to change the source, or both. Some adapt to the moment by the choice of songs, others adapt to the moment with the intensitiy or kind of emotion of the songs.
I have a set with a fixed order of tracks who tell a certain story. depending on the crowd I can go deeper into the songs or not. thats my way to do it, but just ONE way. You might want to change the order of the tracks, well thats good.
Most of my music for you to download at:
http://www.subconsciousmind.ch
Colin OOOD
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Posted : Dec 3, 2008 23:01
Great post. There are a million and one ways of playing live, some more complex than others. What they all have in common though is that there is interaction of some kind between the music and the performer - if you tweak something, or play something, or trigger something, the audience hears it in real-time. Without this, it's not 'live music', and don't let anyone tell you any different, especially people who put 'LIVE!' on the party lineup.
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makus
Overdream
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Posted : Dec 4, 2008 00:01
Quote:
On 2008-12-03 18:19, Dennis the menace wrote:
why not just play dj sets with your own music and add effects, run loops, tweak som filters and other stuff on top of it and skip the idea of live since most of it is just bullshit anyways.
Spindrift
Spindrift
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Posted : Dec 4, 2008 01:03
Quote:
On 2008-12-03 22:50, subconsciousmind wrote:
you can't "agree" on that, spindrift. As I said. "SOME Music" needs to be changed at the source other doesn't. Thats totally up to the song and artist.
Sorry I was unclear. I don't agree that some music doesn't work to be after effected.
I would not disagree that ideally the music should be changed at the source...at least if you should call it live.
But I can certainly see it feasible with any style of music to make an interesting live mashup when DJ'ing with a wide range of effects and a set of loops and fx sounds.
The tracks and loops becomes the source itself...so you are changing at the source.
Quote:
On 2008-12-03 22:50, subconsciousmind wrote:
As for the filter tweaking. I know what you mean, but you don't look from a musical perspective. I have no intention in adapting my song to the crowd. What I do is put MY emotion into the music. Thats what musicians do. They put their emotion into the music. And if the crowd goes cracy I go crazy too and the emotion gets more intense. thats live.
First of all I was not commenting on your live videos. You sure seem to be putting some effort into it and I agree that with for example simple acid music, tweaking the 303 live is a major part of the show.
My objection was not against tweaking but against having a predetermined track order.
In general I would rather hear intro/outro mixes where at least track selection is live than a fixed set where some instruments are tweaked live. Sure there is emotion in tweaking and you can control the mood of a track to a certain degree, but it is still a limitation to how the set will flow with the rest of the night if you are not able to change track order, and for most music an extremely limiting one.
It doesn't matter too much when people are passive observers and you can set the pace, like a rock or pop concert, but for a dance floor you should be able to adjust to the crowd as well.
Sure, for trance it can work out ok a lot of the time with people really enjoying the set, but in my experience from a purely dance oriented perspective it will only really work well if you are very lucky with the timing or most of your tracks sound very similar.
I know that there are some acts that use a predetermined track order and still put a lot of effort into their sets, and they can even put on a decent live show....but I don't go to parties to experience live music...I prefer to go and see really skilled instrumentalists live instead...I go to parties to dance.
So from that somewhat narrow perspective, whatever method brings the best dance experience is what I agree with....and for me that is without doubt good DJ'ing.
But I think it's nice that the borders is getting blurred between DJ and live and that you can nowadays with the proper preparation create electronic music "on the fly", so a set is just one long arrangement created in real-time.
I think we will see more people doing this and both the DJ and live approach will reach pretty similar results.
The advances in technology available for making electronic dance music live should be used to increase interaction with the dancers and being able to control arrangements and track order in realtime is an important part of that.
Quote:
On 2008-12-03 22:50, subconsciousmind wrote:
Spini, there isn't always "agree" "disagree" "right" or "wrong" "better" or "worse" but a whole world of different kinds of people, people, music, systems, preferences etc.
And I'm one of those people voicing my opinion.
You told me about your preferences, I told you mine....it's called discussion and it's a common way of interacting in the whole world.
. (I can't do this song live, since my original cubase files have been demaged. All I have left is the final mixdown). All I do is check the level before the end of the break to make sure it wont distort.
