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Trance Forum Л Л Forum www.isratrance.com - What happened to the psyfactory thread?

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What happened to the psyfactory thread?

Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics : 107
Posts : 966
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 16:49

further: consider it a privilige to be able to post here, where so many people that are part of this scene can talk on a serious level.

secondly, if an artists is registered with any copyright organisation he can NEVER give away his tracks for free on a website without permission of the copyright organiation (that manages these righs for the artist in question). This is international copyright law.

It isn't up to the label to act as police here, they can however contact the respective copyright organisation and act accordingly... i know making copyrighted material available for streaming would cost me roughly 100$ a month per track (payed to the copyright organisation)

Internet radio's pay these royalty fees also, I made calculations for my own ex-project and it would cost me 120-150 euro a month just for the broadcasting permit. check this with SABAM, ACUM, ... or whatever organisation applies to your country.

looking forward for your views on this matter, in a constructive way, that is if the thread stays online.

www.psytracks.com :: Brand new website for sharing your psytracks with the world. Get a free 250Mb Artist profile, Blog and events calender!
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Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics : 33
Posts : 1560
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 17:09

This tread was a bit off to start with since it was really a flip from me since I was upset to see those pages of posts deleted.
Sorry about that.

I jumped to conlusions, but apperently xazy is not Aldo self promotion in disguise pseudonym and the closing of the thread was not releated to anything in the discussion.
It was a private mail from Aldo and p_mac that should not been posted in the first place.
I would rather seen the initial post deleted and the rest kept, but maybe that is not possible?

@rik
The site in question was not hosting any files, only linking to ed2k downloads.
Sure you could try to contact the royalty organisation and get them to stop filesharing.
Even if they managed to stop ed2k it would not make a whole lot of difference. This site would link to torrents instead I guess.

Sure the radiostations pay money to the organisations though, and the organisations pay it to briney spears. How much do you think the labels that got upset about this get from broadcast royalties??
So it's all theoretical.
You can grab a stream from radio stations instead if they manage to stop filesharing. Still no money for the trance lables for people enjoying their music.
So our labels would still be ripped off, even if it's then legal.

(``З.И(``З.И(``З.ИИ.З`Д)И.З`Д)И.З`Д)
Ћ .....www.ResonantEarth.com..... Л
(И.З`Д(И.З`Д(И.З`Д``З.И)``З.И)``З.И)

http://www.myspace.com/spindriftsounds
http://www.myspace.com/resonantearth

Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics : 107
Posts : 966
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 17:29

Quote:

On 2005-01-31 17:09, Spindrift wrote:

@rik
The site in question was not hosting any files, only linking to ed2k downloads.
Sure you could try to contact the royalty organisation and get them to stop filesharing.
Even if they managed to stop ed2k it would not make a whole lot of difference. This site would link to torrents instead I guess.

Sure the radiostations pay money to the organisations though, and the organisations pay it to briney spears. How much do you think the labels that got upset about this get from broadcast royalties??
So it's all theoretical.
You can grab a stream from radio stations instead if they manage to stop filesharing. Still no money for the trance lables for people enjoying their music.
So our labels would still be ripped off, even if it's then legal.

Disregarding the methods used to distribute the audio files presenting them on your webpage makes you personally responsable for providing acces to the files... therefor as a site admin i would have to pay royalties for providing such services to the public.

radio webcasts can be recorded for private use (just as you are legally allowed to record anything broadcasted on tv) and this is in fact legal as long as you don't distribute these recordings afterwards.

it is up to the artist to register himself as an artist with these copyright organisations, not the label. if an artist does this he clearly makes the decision to obtain royalty earnings and he shouldn't complain when the royaltie organisation enforces this policy.

If he does decide to share his tracks and his label fears loosing money on sales (seems logical no?) it's their good right to file a complaint with copyright organisations to resolve this matter, this might even result in the artist having to pay royalties for all financial "damages" done to the label...

this is a very nasty situation that you would want to avoid at all costs as the label will only receive a percentage of the fine the person responsible for the website has to pay.

ps. i'm no legal counsellor, i just did quite some reading on the subject; please do correct me if i'm wrong but as far as i know i can back up my words with legal texts and real life examples

Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics : 33
Posts : 1560
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 17:39

Well, there is a very good reason for a trance artists to complain, which I explained.
Of course it's the artists decition, but that don't neccessarily mean the deal is ok.

With few exeptions most copyright organisations spread money from clubs, internet radio, hairdressers and similar public performance according to how much radio play you had on the major stations.
We have discussed before what that leaves trance artists with.
So legal as it is, still trance musicians and lables get ripped off.

Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics : 107
Posts : 966
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 17:41

advice: if the artist in question did not register with such organisation, and the label claims they did for him (or tracks they licensed from the artist), try and find them in the Acum database, they allow online checking for registered works by artist and track name.

if it doesn't show up there as registered, the label never registered it, neither did the artists, and the label has nothing to say about what the artist does with his music (except for possible contract details when the artist agreed for the music to be used by the label for a release)

if you indeed believe that these organisations only consume your cash for other purposes than the right ones, why work with them in the first place? it's not like your legally binded to do so... it's free choice. if you work with them, follow the rules... otherwise just avoid them.

Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics : 33
Posts : 1560
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 17:50

These organisations do not consume your cash to look after tiny trance labels. They take your money to look after major lables.
From the perspecive of this scene that's not the right reasons, for sony and EMI it is.

So, yes, my point is basically do not register, at least not until you are at a level where you can expect radio play on the major stations.

Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics : 107
Posts : 966
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 17:56

this sounds reasonably logical, but leaves you with no legal backbone to protect your works as an artists from reproduction by 3rd parties etc... this a risk you're going to have to be willing to take. This can be small or big, i don't have a clue... i do know however that a lot of pretty well-known artists haven't ever registered themselves or their music, so i don't expect this to be to much of a risk...

who owns the royaly rights to the tracks this thread is all about anyway? i'm curious now for the ending of this discussion from a legal point of view...

Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics : 33
Posts : 1560
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 18:07

No, you are wrong there.
The are not copyright organisations, but deal with licensing.
So they don't have anything to do with copyright.
All you have to do, wheather you are signed up or not, is to send a registered letter with a copy of the recording and you have the copyright.

If you are not signed up with them you can write whatever licensing terms you like.

The licensing right for trance lables is sometimes in the hands of the label themself with many small lables, so in actual fact it's then not enough to pay the royalty fees for a station or a venue for the right to perform the music.
So ,if the label is not registered you actually need to have a permission from the lable for any form of public broadcasting.

If the label is registered you have to pay the fees for the right to perform the music, and the label have nothing to say about performance rights.

Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics : 107
Posts : 966
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 18:16

u bastard, and i believed for a minute that we where about to agree on something

so let's be case specific: how does this affect the recordings in question, who owns them, and their rights?

Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics : 33
Posts : 1560
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 18:34

About the site.
Linking to downloads not hosted by yourself is not illegal.
The crime here is commited by the users hosting the files on ed2k.
Otherwise p_mac would by the same logic be committing a crime by giving a link to the site.

About the material itself it will vary.
My material for example is distributed under an open license. The artists responsible for the tracks own the copyright but have accepted it to be distributed feely under an open license. So in principle as long as you do not sell the tracks for profit you can rip, copy, share and even sell the tracks for the cost of duplication and postage.

Other lables will be operating without being signed up with the royalty organisations.
That means that it depends what they have been writing on the CD's when it comes to license terms.
Many times that will be the regular "unauthorized public performance, duplication" etc etc.
That means that unless the ed2k users have not asked the label for permission to distribute copies they are committing a crime.
If there is not anything written about licensing and the label is not signed up I would guess you would have to try to find out the licensing terms before you copy the material, but it might be hard for a label in that situation to claim any rights in a court.

Finally some lables is signed up, and the royalty organisations terms will be in place, making sharing of the files illegal.

pr0fane
Multiphase

Started Topics : 418
Posts : 3816
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 18:45

Quote:

On 2005-01-31 16:26, furthur wrote:
This whole story about the deleted thread just reinforced my views on how this forum is actually not about discussion and free speach (a thread that was not offensive at all imo, but was confronting), but it is about promotion for labels and artists. There is nothing wrong with that, but if that is the case, do not call it a public forum.

Youre jumping to conclusions mate

This morning I received private messages from both P_Mac and Kemic-Al. Apparently it was a private email from Kemic-Al that P_Mac posted, and since Kemic-Al didnt want it posted on the forum, they both asked me politely to have the thread removed. And since much of the thread where discussions concerning those particular users, I decided that deleting the thread was the best action.

You are free to continue the discussion about the psyfactory site in a new thread though.

DJ pr0fane (Iboga Records) | Multiphase
www.sunrisesupplies.com | www.iboga.dk | www.soundcloud.com/pr0fane

Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics : 107
Posts : 966
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 19:00

tell me Spindrift, what tracks is this all about? i'm more than curious.

open license sounds like a nice platform to get your music out into the world, good luck with your tracks

Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics : 33
Posts : 1560
Posted : Jan 31, 2005 19:07

It's all the tracks on www.resonantearth.com that is released under this license: http://www.rootrecords.org/licenses.html

There is two releases on psyfactory.net with tracks from the site.

Rik
IsraTrance Team

Started Topics : 107
Posts : 966
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 11:00

From the license website: "And you must show them these terms so they know their rights."

So... in whatever deal you made with the label, did it include them accepting the tracks being on this license (in writing), did you add the full printed license to possible contracts so they agreed to this?

" If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Original Music at all. "

this last quote doesn't sound to good spindrift...it's also from the license

Spindrift
Spindrift

Started Topics : 33
Posts : 1560
Posted : Feb 1, 2005 11:51

I should clarify, it is me who run the site.
I make it very clear for the artists about the license that will be used, and breifly what implications it has.

Unless the artists want to, contacts is not something I bother with for two reasons:
1) I have absolutley no demands on the artists when it comes to exclusivity or copyright.
2) There is not enough money involved for neither me or artists to pay lawyers anyway.

So, when the material is submitted they have accepted the licensing terms, and get my word for payment of $0.65 per sold track.
Like I said, I find that sufficient, and all artists so far seem to think so as well. Legally there is no problem that I just get their acceptance of the license in an email either.

The last phrase do not mean more than that you cannot be distributing the music outside the terms of the license, which is a pretty obvious clause.
What do you think is wrong with that part?

I must say that maybe in hindsight the creative commons would be a better option, if nothing else since it's more widespread and well known.

Trance Forum Л Л Forum www.isratrance.com - What happened to the psyfactory thread?

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