moki
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Posted : Apr 30, 2016 19:19:09
At the moment I am trying to practise with persian santur http://store.precisionsound.net/shop/indian-santoor/ (hear demos of santur). The challenge is that it is definitely not that easy to play this VST instrument on a normal midi keyboard. It becomes a more experimental, hear-and-repeat experience, but it is not systematicly evolving around notation. Do you have some notes or examples of midi tutorials for such instruments? Or are these instruments in trance tracks mostly externally sampled?
You see for the hang, on the physical instrument you would jump from lets say A3 to F4 which would be a short move (a piano player thinks of short moves in terms of small distances between fingers, seconds and thirds, something that is "near" or the nearest note that fits into the scale to be improvised). And in the hang this intuitive distances are totally different on the physical instrument. You know, it is not easy to play that sounds on a midi keyboard intuitively. So I guess practise with notations for hang or santur would be good, but the question is, where do I find the notes for this? In the music library? In the internet? I have not found any yet. You know more about it?
moki
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Posted : Apr 30, 2016 20:42
while reading:
TimeTraveller
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Posted : May 1, 2016 11:40
once there was a very good Kontakt Library for Hang Drum. Like 8 Octaves with layers for different attack and release times (as far as I remember). It was the most authentic rompler I ever heard.
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden
moki
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Posted : May 1, 2016 23:14
With or lithout layers for different attack and release, the difficult part is playing the scales on a midi keyboard or any keyboard. At the end of the day the midi keyboard can receive any input and deliver output of sustain and release. What was the way to assert your midi keyboard through a daw to be extremely sensible to finger pressure, I have seen someone doing it, but forgot the work flow?
Btw I just found something that might help after some excercise:
http://www.hangblog.org/hang-sound-models/ But still no notes to play and get used to how a hang feels intuitively...Tomorrow, the first thing to do : check the musical library for more.
moki
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Posted : May 1, 2016 23:44
here is an example of what i mean:
this one is supposed to be a demo of santur
but santur simply does not sound like this, it has a totally different flair, for example check this mix:
europeans like to think of scales where the octave space is divided into a certain amount of frequency steps which is equally calculated and ordered one after the other with a fixed amount of frequency (terz, thirds or whatever the distance is). if we use our undertanding of scales for asian music, it simply does not have the flair any more....it is important to understand and use their concept of a scale.
TimeTraveller
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Posted : May 1, 2016 23:52
I mean more modes of staccato, legato, slaping and what not etc .. that sort of things.. probably it was described in another fashion than just attack and release. And probably it was not staccato for hang drum. But there were musicaly interesting layers/modes for playing hang drum.
I'm not into libraries but I've seen a skilled musician playing perfectly an instrument on a midi keyboard via a library. He played Flamenco and really mastered it to a very impressive degree. Oviously he played this liebrary with all this layers.
It's years ago but that was impressed me and remains in memory. This guy played more than scales he played almost an concert with all that jazz like solos, legatos, staccatos and all that stuff.
A good library contains such layers (modes) imho. A bad one contains just the sample sources as they are without any further remarkable options or variations or maybe an attack and release that work like uselss.
I think what you ask for is called aftertouch. You could connect it in a matrix to something nice like maybe a cut off or grain duration or something else.
moki
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Posted : May 2, 2016 00:12
Aftertouch , exactly. There could be a plugin to experiment with aftertouch, to exponentially modulate it, spread it through minimal possible steps...
I would imagine that a library for traditional asian sound could implement a feature that optimizes the interface and sets a different colour for the indian scale of your choise - it just shows in colour the notes that you could mark within the chosen scale. Or even blend away all notes that do not belong to the scale and make them unmarkable. But I guess, they don'T have this feature. Yes staccato and legato would be crusible to the endevour, you are totally right. So the Hand Library for Kontakt has this? I have not used Kontakt till now, but this is promising. But to be honest, understanding the scales is much more crucial.
This one is demonstrating very well the physical distances on the instrument:
Here is an orchestra with santur, especially for you TimeTraveller You still have this cool job with orchestra sound? Amazing engagement!
Actually a nice one to experiment. In case anyone does, don't hesitate to post a link to indian notes and scales that is recommendable.
moki
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Posted : May 2, 2016 00:52
Okey, last one, but this one is such a master piece...
It is hard to close it and start my own santur but i guess it is worth trying. with the model above, test the hundreds of line of notes. i guess i could put any effect on them afterwords but really come to a music story of your own somehow needs having played the basic scales of santur dozens of times to make it intuitively. Anyway.
TimeTraveller
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Posted : May 2, 2016 23:01
I'm not working in the industry anymore for almost a year. Someday maybe again. It's best job for me playing with a sequencer and geting paid for it, but a bit demanding on your free time, and I try to get more free time by hopefully succeeding with other ideas in the recent future.
I like the music you've posted. Persian music is also something I like to get a better picture of it. Also afghanistan sitars etc all the region is so magicaly oriental sounding.
Did you get a copy of a good library now? Do you produce psytrance or something else? Share a demo of you works here Peace
https://soundcloud.com/shivagarden
moki
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Posted : May 3, 2016 00:31
psybient. it could become "psytrance" easy, as a few sets of already prepared sound libraries can always be included. at the end of the day, what makes psytrance psytrance - there were hundreds of discussions on that and i guess, the most common definition of it suggests that a "psytrance touch" can be added within a few minutes from the sound libraries you have worked on for years, or others worked on...
of course it is a totally different thing to make it sound psychedelic, which is never achieved by well known libraries that you have made or collected through the years - it is always the unknown.
psybient and ambient is not that easy. i am not good enough to send demos. about the library: actually i mean a simple normal library building full of books with notes, not the digital sampled one:D. so i was there today and got a few oriental collections. santoor is there too, i finally understood what makes it sound so repetitive and trancy. what makes the shimmering effect.
actually if you tell me what would make it "psytrance" for you, i could probably add this to santur and may be post a demo, if "psytrance" is needed to understand santur:). or probably work on it the next time someone visits me .
moki
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Posted : May 3, 2016 14:26
a metronome of 100-120 bpm for midi input of santur is a good start, the more intuitive it becomes, the faster the finger, then 145 is still my ideal point, although at the moment the metronome is all i need. this is the instresting part of playing traditional instruments - it is more about the path to intuitive flow not about the product at the end.
You still have this cool job with orchestra sound? Amazing engagement!
Peace
