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Views on piracy. Honesty please
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braininavat
Started Topics :
5
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233
Posted : Mar 29, 2010 19:30
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On 2010-03-28 15:39, mubali wrote:
and you know who is not feeling this piracy pain? Clavia, Access, Waldorf.... 
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Exactly....I was using reaktor as an example...not singular proof of an entire concept...
Another example is nord modular g2 vsti...
You can download the demo that runs on PC right now, but you will never see a vst version..gee i wonder why.
Symbolic Sound though may be the best example..They will never migrate Kyma to native..Its worth it for this very small company to spend money on hardware just so people can't pirate it. Not only do we pay for our piracy with kyma costing a fortune so much so most will never use it, we pay with how much better it would be if they had the money to hire additional professional programmers instead of spending money on hardware..
The other point totally missed is there are companies that we simply will never see formed because of piracy.
Only a complete fool can think this is a healthy market. If you had a 200k to spend, would you hire programmers to form a vst company? Hell no...Would be better off lighting the 200k on fire.
Give it another 10 years and we will see who is right in this debate..The bills of a decade of massive piracy have come due and we are all bankrupt to pay them. Sure piracy has been around since commercial software was invented but audio software took this to a whole other level. |
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braininavat
Started Topics :
5
Posts :
233
Posted : Mar 29, 2010 19:37
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On 2010-03-28 10:08, *eLliSDee* wrote:
developers,
don't sweat it. the moment i profit from using your software I'll buy your product. it;s a promise
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No irony in that you will stop using pirated software when you start making money from psytrance...ohh wait, you can't make any money from psytrance because of music piracy...combined with the fact the whole market is dilluted with too much music because of a....software piracy..lol. |
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braininavat
Started Topics :
5
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233
Posted : Mar 29, 2010 19:48
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But just like for software developers the accessibility that piracy generates does increase the market for music technology, making it very hard to judge how their businesses would be doing without piracy.
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Yea imagine how much money these companies would be losing if demos were actually demos of software and not basically giving away the goods to challenge cracking teams..
Its not hard to figure out, the idea that piracy adds to the bottom line is just absurd. |
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
671
Posted : Mar 29, 2010 21:31
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On 2010-03-29 19:37, braininavat wrote:
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On 2010-03-28 10:08, *eLliSDee* wrote:
developers,
don't sweat it. the moment i profit from using your software I'll buy your product. it;s a promise
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No irony in that you will stop using pirated software when you start making money from psytrance...ohh wait, you can't make any money from psytrance because of music piracy...combined with the fact the whole market is dilluted with too much music because of a....software piracy..lol.
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Well then, get on board my boat.
I have to work a real paying day job because of this irony you pointed out.
If these developers can't make mince-meat then maybe they should get a paying job. Like i do. And suck it up. and develop on the side for a hobby. like i do.
I'm not gonna try to milk a poor hippy to pay for the music i make in the little spear time i have. And i expect these developers to grant me this same luxury.
Go milk a fat cow. Make your software $10000 and milk the millionaire Hip-Hop producers and artist and record companies who profits from it.
maybe that will make up for us 'unsue-able' pirates.
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
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1659
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 00:15
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I have to work a real paying day job because of this irony you pointed out.
If these developers can't make mince-meat then maybe they should get a paying job. Like i do. And suck it up. and develop on the side for a hobby. like i do.
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Two things... First, think what it’s going to do to the quality (and probably quantity) of software if every programmer just turns into an amateur. Second, your parallel is unfair. Did you spend upward of $40 K to get a degree in “Psy Trance Sciences”? Most of these computer guys did. Hell, maybe you should stop paying your doctor too – so that he becomes a real estate agent and treats you on a side as a hobby?
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I'm not gonna try to milk a poor hippy to pay for the music i make in the little spear time i have. And i expect these developers to grant me this same luxury.
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A full copy of Ableton, with all synths and effects plus gigabytes of sampled instruments, in a shiny box, costs $850. I agree, this is an outrageous sum of money for a non-professional musician to pay. On the other hand, it is about 150 hours at the minimum wage (in the US at least) or 170 cups of cappuccino. Anybody who can spend 3 hours a week flipping burgers will save this much money in a year. Anybody can live for half a year without their daily lattes. And if you combine the two – you’ll have your $850 in less than 4 months.
And think of it this way: for a price of an upright piano you get a piano, a rack of electronics, a symphony orchestra and a jazz band. If you wanted to play piano as badly as you claim you want to create electronic music – you would buy a piano, wouldn’t you? And if you wanted to become the next Tony Hawk you would buy a skateboard. So, what’s different here?
If flipping burgers is beneath your dignity, consider this: a great Kiwi guy named Tom Cosm runs a blog full of Ableton tips and tricks – complete with excellent videos and example live packs. When he needed to upgrade his (legal) copy of Ableton he said so on his blog. In less than a couple of weeks so many people donated their $5-10 to him that he had enough. When his laptop died, he did the same thing – people collected over $1000 for his new laptop. Because he helped so many people with his blog, it is only fair that these people help him too. Everybody wins: he, his blog readers and Ableton. It does not have to be a “who rips whom off” game.
I do something for you, you do something for me – we are both better off than we were before. You leech off of me – you are the only one who wins. And even that is temporary: why would I continue making something just to feed leeches? You say “let the developers charge Diddy $10K per copy of their software and give it to you for free”? Beware what you wish for! Soon enough people like Diddy are going to have their custom-made software and you are going to be left with the stuff you pirated 20 years ago.
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
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40
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671
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 01:22
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listen, i few things here buddy.
I don't drink lattes because i can't afford it.
I'm not too dignified to flip burgers. i work at a construction site with a hard hat.
don't talk to me about unfair, my parents could not afford that 40k education.
and i don't go around making all kinds of wack arguments way people should pay for my music.
If diddy gets his custom software. horay for the developers. they can quite their whining, and horay for diddy. he deserves it,, the man works his poor fingers to the bone. 
maybe diddy should make $10000 custom CDs to people who can afford it. so he can also stop complaining about music piracy.
Would I steal a guys guitar if he has 5 and use none?
YES, and i have. not proud of it. But today i can play the guitar like jimmy. That guy is know gown-up like me and he still can't play.
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
12
Posts :
1659
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 01:39
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Would I steal a guys guitar if he has 5 and use none?
YES, and i have. not proud of it. But today i can play the guitar like jimmy. That guy is know gown-up like me and he still can't play.
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Well, I would not. If I starve and can not find any other way to get food - I may pick apples from somebody's orchard. Or I may go to a shelter, where people offer food for free. It's a matter of survival. Learning to play guitar is not. Besides, I have a friend who wanted to learn to play a guitar and could not afford it. He made this outrageous monstrosity out of ply wood, styrofoam and an old microphone - that was his first guitar. Two years later he could play like Jimmy too. |
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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671
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 01:59
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And you talk about leeching and only one wins..
You forget that developers is not the only ones here that's effected by piracy.
Their just the only ones whining about it.
now these musicians is suppose to pay the "suffering hard done-by" developers, but they themselves cannot make a living in this scene because their music is being pirated.
so whos leeching? whos the winner? ME!!!
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FaceHead
FaceHead
Started Topics :
129
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1555
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 03:16
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the people making more popular daw's are still making tons of money off software... IE metallica is pissed off about napster.
Everyone just needs to get over it and accept that with the implementation of digital mediums and information that it will happen... if in the 80's you could turn on a box push a button and have ll cool j blast through space virtually and end up on your reel to reel then im sure people wouldnt have been recording radio stations and recording those recordings to give to their friends.
if its there it will be pirated by someone. Debating that wont ever stop it. If you dont make music for money then music piracy is a great thing. What better way to get your music out to the world than by having it accessible to tons of people who dont have money to buy a 14$ cd plus shipping and handling.
Tell me this in honesty do you not think it is a scam to be selling vrtual instruments for more than many hardware units... Do you think only the privelaged of societies should be capable of using a waves bundle or logic 8. seriously for the average person figuring out how to muster up 1000$ for music software is a huge financial undertaking... Now imagine... the most amazing musician that we have yet to hear is out there and living in a shit apartment with no money but endless inspiration and potential... yet they dont have access to professional grade software because all the money they can get is already spent... do you want to stop that music from potentially being made. Id rather hear what the people who are in the trenches of life are writing more than the superstar generals that can afford whatever they want.
it is my opinion that ART is and always will be infinately more important than money or the things our societies require us to spend it on.
So i say if you have money buy if you dont its extremely foolish to let a lack of money stop you from doing anything that you are driven to do.
I have a record label and make my own music and although i very much appreciate any financial support people feel my music deserves i could never be angry at someone for listening to it fort free. I am happy enough to be alive well and have people checking out my creative efforts. Be thankful you even have the chance to make music that people want to listen to bad enough to steal it. Life is good.
To me theft has more to do with the source than all the "pirates downloading it" It also is very different to intentionally steal from something than it is to download a file. When you steal something you conspire within your head how you can arrange situations manipulate or deceive people or just do it without being seen you plan how you will use the situation to gain control over something someone else has..but if they could copy whatever you wanted to steal then would it be theft if they gave you a copy?... if someone robs a bank and opens a breifcase full of money and leaves it in the towns square, with a sign that says "free money! yes have some. " are the people taking 20$ outta the case the ones that are robbing the bank or was it the guy that took the money to begin with.
Looks like the trance parliament will have to hold off on deciding whether or not his one is right or wrong.
ITs just up to each of us individually to decide how we feel about things like this there is no need to attempt to set a moral precedent. Time will either yeild new technology or acceptance of this as a part of the modern age.
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Maine Coon
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
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1659
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 05:00
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FaceHead,
I think you make some very good points here. Made me scratch my head a few times
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What better way to get your music out to the world than by having it accessible to tons of people who dont have money to buy a 14$ cd plus shipping and handling.
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Well, there is the Ektoplazm model: you give your music away for free. And those, who feel like paying for it, have that option too. No need for piracy.
Well, I am tired of discussing philosophy - let me turn it a bit more personal...
Awhile ago (too long for my taste), I found myself out of my job. So, here I was, sitting in front of my computer at home, eating up my savings and frantically applying for jobs. In order to save myself from going nuts, I found some pirate blog and helped myself to some music (mostly, very cheesy 1980s Italian pop ). One day, I came across “Mechanical Forest” compilation, found it interesting, went to Mechanical Dragon’s Web site and read. This way I found out about psy trance. I read all about it on Wikipedia, went to PsyMania and started sampling stuff. I think it’s entirely positive for now: I got to explore the music I never knew existed; some artists got a future customer for their CDs. Win-win.
During my explorations I came across a link to Ektoplazm. Tell me now: if I am downloading psy trance albums primarily to learn about this style and explore its sub-genres (and now also to recognize production tricks I am slowly learning) – why would I go for pirated stuff, when Ektoplazm gives it to me for free and keeps my conscience clear?
I still continue getting stuff from PsyMania’s links – but only as “borrowing” and much less often then I used to. And the albums I like and want to keep (like “Daze of Our Lives” by Filteria or “In Plants We Trust” VA compilation) I will definitely buy as soon as I have some money coming in. And probably will send some copies as gifts to my brother too. This kind of piracy lets me sleep at night. It’s just like checking things out of a library. Every time I listen to “Subliminal Messages” by CPC, I can’t help thinking “I’ll buy this guy’s CD for sure”. And I will. It is not going to happen to “Sounds Like a Melody” by DNA, for example. But then – you will no longer find it on my hard drive either. I think this is fair – do you agree?
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I’d rather hear what the people who are in the trenches of life are writing more than the superstar generals that can afford whatever they want.
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One way to ensure this is to buy their music instead of heading to Rapidshare. Then maybe they will not have to use cracked software. And maybe the company will do a better job at developing it. Everybody wins – like in my example with Tom Cosm, his readers and Ableton.
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..but if they could copy whatever you wanted to steal then would it be theft if they gave you a copy?...
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If the artist/programmer or their representatives (label/company) gave it to me – it’s not a theft. If Team AiR did – it is.
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if someone robs a bank and opens a breifcase full of money and leaves it in the towns square, with a sign that says "free money! yes have some. " are the people taking 20$ outta the case the ones that are robbing the bank or was it the guy that took the money to begin with.
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Still scratching my head on that one
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It’s just up to each of us individually to decide how we feel about things like this there is no need to attempt to set a moral precedent.
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Something I’ve been saying all along. Everybody can take a good look at himself and figure this out. We all have that compass.
Whatever lets you sleep at night...
P.S. I am extremely jealous of your address. I spent a summer in Eugene in ’93 and wanted to move there ever since. IMHO, this is the best location for psychedelic work!
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mubali
Mubali
Started Topics :
71
Posts :
2219
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 13:07
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On 2010-03-30 01:22, *eLliSDee* wrote:
listen, i few things here buddy.
I don't drink lattes because i can't afford it.
I'm not too dignified to flip burgers. i work at a construction site with a hard hat.
don't talk to me about unfair, my parents could not afford that 40k education.
and i don't go around making all kinds of wack arguments way people should pay for my music.
If diddy gets his custom software. horay for the developers. they can quite their whining, and horay for diddy. he deserves it,, the man works his poor fingers to the bone.
maybe diddy should make $10000 custom CDs to people who can afford it. so he can also stop complaining about music piracy.
Would I steal a guys guitar if he has 5 and use none?
YES, and i have. not proud of it. But today i can play the guitar like jimmy. That guy is know gown-up like me and he still can't play.
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I'm just going to discuss the initial couple of points in this one. First of all, if you're working construction, then you're obviously making more money than flipping burgers and therefore it would take less time for you to buy something you felt was of value to you. Secondly, just about all those software developer's parents couldn't afford college either, these developers are paying off that $40,000 for the next 20 years or more, on top of trying to earn a salary to live. Unfortunately the only ones really injecting the money into the audio production software industry are those large studios because the HAVE to. Some major studios would get fined for using stuff they didn't actually own.
One of the reasons why software audio applications were created was so you no longer had to be independently wealthy to make music or record it. But perhaps people have taken it to the extreme and now since you don't really need any money to make stuff, nobody appreciates what they have.
 An Eagle may soar, but Weasels don't get sucked into jet engines. |
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braininavat
Started Topics :
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233
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 16:42
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On 2010-03-29 21:31, *eLliSDee* wrote:
If these developers can't make mince-meat then maybe they should get a paying job. Like i do.
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And the irony continues...
The original kurzweil k2000 synth engine was made by a 5 man team of guys with degrees from M.I.T..
If you think you can out program a 5 man team from MIT working full time in vst space in your spare time you are delusional.
What would 5 guys from MIT be able to do now
if someone paid them to work on a vst synth now with such a good framework as vst and better developement tools than coding to a dsp chip from scratch?
We will never know because no one is stupid enough to waste their money on hiring 5 guys with that skill set to work for 2 years on a synth just to see their investment go down the drain because every steals what the company makes.
Not to mention that you might actually be able to get a job as a vst programmer instead of working construction.
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braininavat
Started Topics :
5
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233
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 17:01
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On 2010-03-30 03:16, FaceHead wrote:
the people making more popular daw's are still making tons of money off software... IE metallica is pissed off about napster.
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There is NO WAY that is true. If steinberg was making tons of money we would see them put that money into research and come out with new amazing audio software but we don't because they are not.
Its still way early in the VST game..Give it another 10 years, no way alot of these "big" companies will still be around.
We will all be talking on here in a decade of how maybe it was a bad idea to have raped these companies dry.
On a side note another amazing piece of software we would all be using right now but you will never see because of piracy Synthkit VST...
Imagine a version of reaktor/synthedit that has korg's oscilators, filters, envs that you can wire up any way you want..
It sits rotting behind the walls of korg right now.
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=6532 |
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*eLliSDee*
IsraTrance Junior Member
Started Topics :
40
Posts :
671
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 18:20
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On 2010-03-30 13:07, mubali wrote
I'm just going to discuss the initial couple of points in this one. First of all, if you're working construction, then you're obviously making more money than flipping burgers and therefore it would take less time for you to buy something you felt was of value to you. Secondly, just about all those software developer's parents couldn't afford college either, these developers are paying off that $40,000 for the next 20 years or more, on top of trying to earn a salary to live. Unfortunately the only ones really injecting the money into the audio production software industry are those large studios because the HAVE to. Some major studios would get fined for using stuff they didn't actually own.
One of the reasons why software audio applications were created was so you no longer had to be independently wealthy to make music or record it. But perhaps people have taken it to the extreme and now since you don't really need any money to make stuff, nobody appreciates what they have.
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let me just retouch a couple of points here.
1)
We live worlds apart.
You live in a cocoon where construction is a good paying job, and 18 year olds get 40k student loans. Maybe working in construction in your world pays good.
In my world (the real world, the one you don't see or hear from inside your cocoon) minimum wages is equivalent to +/- 230 us dollars PER MONTH (just over $1 per hour). and my position in construction is not as prestigious as you might imagine.
2)
Curious, seeing that you know so much about the world.
How did you learn that that just about all those software developers couldn't afford it and had to make a loan to pay off over 20years?
Should i describe the circumstances under which a 40k student loan will be granted in my world?
3)all
My main point was that; read slow
Why should a musician pay for the software,, If they can not make a living with creating ("developing") music (in the psy scene especially) because their music is being pirated to such an extent, that now these musicians can only work on there product part-time and have to get another job.
Seems that you say that the developers is so much more important than the musicians. We can't allow them to start developing part-time like the musicians have to.
All this because piracy effects both.
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Dharma Lab
Started Topics :
8
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342
Posted : Mar 30, 2010 18:57
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On 2010-03-30 16:42, braininavat wrote:
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On 2010-03-29 21:31, *eLliSDee* wrote:
If these developers can't make mince-meat then maybe they should get a paying job. Like i do.
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And the irony continues...
The original kurzweil k2000 synth engine was made by a 5 man team of guys with degrees from M.I.T..
If you think you can out program a 5 man team from MIT working full time in vst space in your spare time you are delusional.
What would 5 guys from MIT be able to do now
if someone paid them to work on a vst synth now with such a good framework as vst and better developement tools than coding to a dsp chip from scratch?
We will never know because no one is stupid enough to waste their money on hiring 5 guys with that skill set to work for 2 years on a synth just to see their investment go down the drain because every steals what the company makes.
Not to mention that you might actually be able to get a job as a vst programmer instead of working construction.
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^^^
A point I was going to bring up. There is just no substitute for hours upon hours of experience working on a project. It doesn't always lead to better things, but there is a potential in it that may not exist otherwise.
Keep The Faith,
Christian K. |
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